Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#111

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

stared wrote: post #50

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

> Human-created meaning Could you give an example for "meaning" which is not "human-created"? A human (and possibly other animals') instinct to create meaning might be not different from a spider's instinct to make a web. "Meaning" looks like an evolution-selected motivation tool for long-term goals. If it is true, it is an ill-motivated question whether there is some universal meaning. The same as if there is an obj…

> "If it is true, it is an ill-motivated question whether there is some universal meaning. The same as if there is an objective cobweb."

Perhaps. And yet, the only easily accessible answers to the question why am I here are "I know why, and if you attend my seminar I can tell you more about it"

It's also not a helpful answer. Imagine: Dad, why are we here? Son, that is a ill-motivated question. Might as well ask if the is an objective cobweb. Now take the garbage out

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#112

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

thrww20210608 wrote: post #44

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

The many Marian apparitions that have been documented, makes me certain that there is meaning to life: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun Feel free to ask me more about Catholicism if this piques your interest!

Whatever works for you, and I have sincere respect for you Christians (mostly, some are assholes), but at the core, you just have to take a leap of faith in order to accept that philosophy.

I am constitutionally unable to accept a metaphysics that depends on its adherents willfully disregarding anything at all.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#113

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

"Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar."

For Victor Frankl the meaning of life is not an answer you find out in the world but a question the world asks of you, and which you answer in the way you live your life.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#114

Post by acituan » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

kvathupo wrote: post #108

acituan wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me rationality is a pretty important normativity, not that I am after it for power. But since you seem to precisely know what I think, exactly how powerful should I feel about it?

I'm tired of such preoccupation on some nebulous notion of "rationality," when any cursory reading of philosophy, particularly of mathematics, informs one of the subjectivity inherent in the choice of one's axioms and definitions, especially amidst type theory's recent resurgence. So, no: "rationality" is not common knowledge. Perhaps I don't accept the Axiom of Choice, yet you do? Perhaps my definition of "authority…

Please don’t confuse rationality with rationalism.

Nor we should reduce it to inferential processing of axioms and propositions. I’m surprised your cursory reading of philosophy haven’t encountered for example the Aristotelian golden ratio (root word for reason) and its application in virtue ethics, or the word logos that the entire christian culture was built on, or that should be familiar to anyone that has studied anything -logy.

We all actively participate in rationality with varying degrees of success. And calling out personal attacks made at the expense of actual counter-arguments is rational both in the sense of proportionality, appropriateness and even as a call for virtuousness.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#115

Post by alfor » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

rendall wrote: post #106

alfor wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There might not be meaning to the universe, but there is meaning in the human enterprise. We went from animals, to highly effective and conscious of ourselves and the universe. The human developpement keep pushing forward. I think that the main cause of meaninglessness is our rejection of our own culture ( mostly Christian). There is good reason to reject them as the bearded magician in the sky seem stupid to a moder…

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, but I do appreciate your response. Sure, as metaphors and origin stories and cultural touchstones, they're worth knowing more about. But thinking these tales as literal truth is... not helpful to address existential angst. Not to someone like me, anyway. Not one among those stories explicitly says "Yes, the Universe might indeed have no meaning. That observation is valid, ration…

I think that everything Christian or from Peterson get downvoted in this left leaning place, they are seen as backward or even evil.

Theses stories made me realize that we are part of millennia of human understanding evolution. To me there is sometime a deeper meaning at a second level but I have to get past a first reaction of disdain that i got from all things Christian. We are more open to other culture religions as we don’t know their flaws as well.

Jung is still opaque to me.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#116

Post by dsego » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

warent wrote: post #80

adamc wrote: post #67

My ex-wife (who was with me for decades) tagged me as an existentialist early on, and I guess it was true. I don't really understand how we can see the universe another way, without lying to ourselves: bad things happen, and nothing is done about it. What Christian theologians have called "The Problem of Evil" leads me to see the universe as uncaring, indifferent. The only way out of it that has worked for me is to c…

It's interesting that many atheists seem to argue that the only two choices are either a Christian god, or a basically meaningless universe, and a keystone for Christianity to be the wrong option is the problem of evil. But there are so many other philosophies that have resolved this. For example, some Hindu schools explain that god is the only one that experiences anything. The paradox of its infinite nature means t…

> but the problem of evil always seems like the weakest argument in its defense.

I can't understand why anyone would see religion or philosophy that says that some poor child deserved bone cancer because of karma or some balance of good and evil in the world as anything but despicable and disgusting. What is gained from any of them, what value do they bring?

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#117

Post by pmoriarty » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

all2 wrote: post #94

naasking wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This illustrates the scope of experience we apply to the world. I have never seen a color of running, but somoeone has. Synesthesia is very real and to those who possess it, there is a color of running. Subjective properties are not objective properties. Synesthetes perceive subjective interpretations of objective properties. The perceptual distortions enabled by psychedelics are also not reflecting objective prope…

You're sidestepping the metaphor. The point is that you and I may not be mentally equipped to observe reality in a way that shows underlying purpose. There's the assumption that the thing yields its purpose when inspected. Consider a screw driver. If you and I see it but lack the knowledge of context into which it was created (driving screws) we would say it is obviouslymechanical, obviously designed and manufactured…

"We assume, by looking at the universe, that it (the thing) will yield to us purpose or reason for being. We can't get that information about the universe from the universe."

Unless you can ask the universe about the universe, which some people think they can.

Even if they're right, though, I'd argue that you could never know if you got the truth from the universe, if it was lying, or if you were just deluded.

People can find meanings in all sorts of things and in all sorts of ways. Doesn't mean they're right.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#118

Post by rendall » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

pizza wrote: post #64

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

Is it even meaningful to say that the universe - everything - has an entropy? Isn't it not even meaningful to talk about the entropy of something that is in a non-equilibriated state? People point to experiments about gas particles bouncing off the walls of closed boxes to prove how entropy is always increasing, but it really makes no sense to transfer that to the whole universe. I have been much more convinced that…

> Is it even meaningful to say that the universe - everything - has an entropy?

The overarching approach to possible lack of meaning applies whether the universe increases entropy, sheds it, or maintains static equilibrium forever and ever and ever. It's kind of beside the point, really. Read entropy here as a metaphor for creeping existential despair or random chaos, whichever makes more sense to you.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#119

Post by tartoran » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:49 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #113

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

"Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar." For Victor Frankl the meaning of life is not an answer you find out in the world but a ques…

Whenever I feel a hopeless meaningless in my life, Victor Frankl comes to rescue and I reorient my thoughts on the meaning of life, of our lives. The fact that the universe has no meaning does not imply that life cannot be filled with a meaning and fullfill that.

Re: Dabrowski’s theory and existential depression (2020)

#120

Post by saiya-jin » Mon, Jul 05, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #113

rendall wrote: post #35

For me and a friend, we'd joke about our existential despair. "What's wrong?" "The Void" Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar. The…

"Any philosophy that just asserted that the Universe has meaning was a non-starter, for me. There is nothing that I can see that unambiguously tells me that the Universe ultimately has absolute purpose or meaning. It could, but anyone who tells you they know the fundamental question of why we are here is delusional or a liar." For Victor Frankl the meaning of life is not an answer you find out in the world but a ques…

I guess that's about it for the topic, anything else are just speculative farts in the wind.

The problem is, tons of people despair for a guidance. A bulletproof manual so they don't have to face uncertainties that life brings daily, and do hard moral choices. And what you state, no matter how correct or not, is simply not enough for them. It still scares the shit out of them.

Thus, relatively independent formation of various religions that directly or indirectly address this existential question #1 and much more. Its funny how at the end almost all say the same 'be good, don't do evil, and you shall be rewarded'.

I do honestly believe that if a person was 'indoctrinated' into religion in their young age, abandoning it completely in later life is extremely hard and impossible for many (ie due to environment they live in, like cigarettes). I can see it in my circle of friends. It would create hole so big in their core personality that they would fall apart like house of cards when first hardship comes. And eventually they always will.