On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others • Hacker News Board

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#71

Post by nicbou » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

tveyben wrote: post #40

I think my brain is working hardest either in the shower or in the early morning just before waking up. Why? Because my best ideas for work(!) typically appears at these ‘non-working’ times. How to balance this - I don’t know… The ideas ‘just’ arrive at that time, likely because the mind is relaxed and ‘subconsciously’ is working harder than while ‘actively’ working. The ideas are then refined and implemented during…

Have you tried extending those shower thinking sessions a bit?

Walking or riding a bicycle for a while without headphones usually do the trick for me. I also like to sit on my balcony and just... think. Things that need thinking about naturally float to the top, as long as your mind isn't stimulated 100% of the time.

It's easier said than done in a world full of feeds and notifications, and although I struggle to maintain this habit, I find it really rewarding.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#72

Post by nicbou » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

softwaredoug wrote: post #9

I can resent the nannying of how much I should work to prevent my burnout. If I'm driven intrinsically by what I'm doing, leave me alone already. I'll naturally take breaks as my intrinsic motivation waxes and wanes. If I'm driven extrinsically to do something not fun, and I keep pushing on it, I'll burn out rather easily. In this case, tell me something is important/useful, but also let up to give me the encourageme…

One caveat is that it sets expectations that my be hard to keep up with when your motivation wanes. People might see what workloads you handle, and think you'll consistently handle the same.

Another caveat is that balance is good even if you're enjoying work. You still need to eat, exercise, socialise and whatnot.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#73

Post by nicbou » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

cherryturnover wrote: post #15

I learned that working hard isn't the ticket to wealth. It's knowing people and putting on a good show that you work hard. I used to work hard and never really got "respect" for it (like promotions or whatnot). While I got shit done, it didn't give me what I wanted. Eventually I started coasting and chatting with coworkers more. I didn't sweat making mistakes either. It was literally the moment in Office Space where…

A less cynical approach is that you are paid based on the value you create (or the perception thereof).

Besides, I think people just want to put in their hours and get paid. As long as you don't make their 40 hours a week more unpleasant, you'll do just fine.

Otherwise, I completely agree with your comment.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#74

Post by 9530jh9054ven » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 9:47 PM UTC

dmje wrote: post #30

Anything that suggests that work is the beginning, middle and end of life is utterly and completely misguided in my humble opinion. As the great sages tend to say, you're not going to be on your deathbed wishing you'd signed that extra deal, you're going to be lying there thinking of your family, your love, the time with your kids. Now that's not to say there aren't moments in your life when you're up for working har…

I think that only really applies if you're 'normal' though.

I'm what you might call an incel, though it's not so much the lack of sex as it is the lack of being able to bond emotionally. So unlike most people I've never been able to make friends beyond superficial politeness. Combined with the fact that 'family' has no happy connections for me; growing up time 'love' meant getting hit across the face because that's how you showed that you loved family. Wasn't until it was too late that I realized that might not be the case.

So friends has no meaning to me, and family has no happy meaning. I'm not good with hobbies; they just don't seem interesting to me.

So I'd say it's not misguided. Perhaps not applicable to you but to some of us, it's all we will ever have.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#75

Post by naveen99 » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

A lot of these things are easier to reason about when you look at the full picture: budget over your lifetime. You want to match your gear ratio to your situation.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#76

Post by aerosmile » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 10:10 PM UTC

lawrjone wrote: post #36

aerosmile wrote: post #34

A point that's often missed is: some people don't perceive certain types of work as work. I know it's a cliche, and if this sentence doesn't immediate resonate with you, you're probably not a part of that group I am referring to - and that's ok. Don't feel like you somehow are not as cool or special, quite to the contrary - you're probably more balanced and overall healthier. But that doesn't change the fact that the…

I think you make some really good points here. I had a few experiences like the one you describe: I recall a small side project where I would wake, work for ~14hrs until I slept, then rinse and repeat for a few days until I got the work done. It wasn't deliberate, I just really loved what I was doing. > obsession for entrepreneurship, which in turn gave me passion and motivation to push myself to the limit, and which…

Fascinating podcast!

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#77

Post by fuzzfactor » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #51

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between working hard with balance and working hard to the point of excluding everything else in life. > when you spend all your free time working/studying, and constantly turn down invitations to go do stuff with friends, people stop inviting you to things. If we consider a strict 40-hour maximum workweek on one end of the spectrum and what your friend is describing (100-120 hour workweek that le…

Working more than 40 hours a week has diminishing (or negative) returns. Proper scaling means delegation and systems. Grinding away isn’t just unproductive, it’s a sign of a poorly run company.

>Working more than 40 hours a week has diminishing (or negative) returns.

This can be so true. In the 24/7 operation it's important to recognize how this can occur and do whatever it takes to work around it.

OTOH making progress with unique electronics (which is not going to last forever anyway) can be done in an ordinary company if the ordinary company work can be accomplished in 35 hours instead of 40, and the resulting surplus 5 hours devoted to the unique electronics.

The equation says you have to actually work harder and more effectively for this to be true within the same 40 hours.

Resulting in the perfect example of positive returns.

Then if you put in 20 hours of overtime what have you got to show for it?

Well you could get five times as much accomplished per week on the unique electronics if you were so motivated.

The equation now says you have to actually work way harder and more effectively for this to be true and that 40 hours is out the window from the get go.

Only you can decide whether that kind of accelerated progress is more positive or not, and compared to what.

Probably your average job you could put in 80 hours and not even get nearly twice as much done as 40 hours, so why bother?

>Proper scaling means delegation and systems.

Ideally there would be backup gear and backup staff to insure 24 hour progress using only 40 hour weeks, but too many business operations are nonideal and build upon a relatively defective or incomplete foundation.

>Grinding away isn’t just unproductive, it’s a sign of a poorly run company.

I just can't let that bother me sometimes, most companies are not going to be that far above average if at all.

Usually little or no progress is on the agenda for being deployed.

If you're an innovator almost everything's always going to be underleveraged anyway since there's only so much resources to begin with.

Plus progress takes time & effort, how much progress would you like to make?

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#78

Post by brailsafe » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 10:53 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #65

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/work-life-balance-and-jugg... “Imagine life as a game in which you are juggling some five balls in the air. You name them - work, family, health, friends and spirit - and you're keeping all of these in the air. You will soon understand that work is a rubber ball. If you drop it, it will bounce back. But the other four balls - family, health, friends and spirit - are made of glass. If…

Friends and family bounce back as well. As you get more free time you go out and get new friends, or you contact your family or old friends again. The only problem is health, you don't really get that back easily. Of course it is harder to get them back than the keep them constant, but the same applies to jobs as well, the longer you have been without a job the harder it is to get back, but it is still not that hard.

Friends and family don't bounce back though, you need to repair them, glue them back together etc..

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#79

Post by jokoon » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 10:54 PM UTC

I'm chronically unemployed at 34, and I really feel incapable of competing in the labor market when I see how people consent to overwork.

I don't have anything against workers, but I really resent that some people believe I deserve to die alone and poor while they consent to overtime without taking a step back.

Some people want to participate in society not for money, status or because they like to work, but just to exist for 5min.

Competition becomes an horrible side of society.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#80

Post by relativ575 » Sun, Jul 04, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

luffapi wrote: post #51

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between working hard with balance and working hard to the point of excluding everything else in life. > when you spend all your free time working/studying, and constantly turn down invitations to go do stuff with friends, people stop inviting you to things. If we consider a strict 40-hour maximum workweek on one end of the spectrum and what your friend is describing (100-120 hour workweek that le…

Working more than 40 hours a week has diminishing (or negative) returns. Proper scaling means delegation and systems. Grinding away isn’t just unproductive, it’s a sign of a poorly run company.

40 hours is a completely arbitrary number. It wasn't true a hundred year ago. It isn't true for everyone. It isn't true for the same person during different phases of their life. What is true is that overworking will only have diminishing return, however it is up to each individual to find their own threshold.

Grinding away may not be productive, and may be a sign of a poorly run company, but sometime a company has to do it anyway if it's the matter of survival. A dead company can't become a well run one.