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On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

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Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#31
post #23

I can resent the nannying of how much I should work to prevent my burnout. If I'm driven intrinsically by what I'm doing, leave me alone already. I'll naturally take breaks as my intrinsic motivation waxes and wanes. If I'm driven extrinsically to do something not fun, and I keep pushing on it, I'll burn out rather easily. In this case, tell me something is important/useful, but also let up to give me the encourageme…

You don't work in a bubble, and if you are a more senior person on a team the juniors will see what you're doing and follow by example. And when you're a junior, it's equally as important to be told by your superiors to stop, so that it's crystal clear that it's not expected or even encouraged.

Yes I get that. My annoyance isn’t the only factor in play.

Though with remote work, employees with different time zones, and pandemic parenting, it’s hard to see someone working and say “oh they’re working too much”

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#32
post #3

I found myself nodding along to almost everything in this article; Two comments: > The problems pulled me in, and I’d get so involved I’d be unable to sleep until I solved a problem, sometimes escaping into my dreams if I hadn’t found a natural pause point. I can relate to this, so much. It's an incrediblely productive time period when my brain is like this at 7/8/9pm, but inevitably I lose out on a day or two follow…

> Nobody ever told me to work late, but nobody ever told me to _stop_ working. If my boss/bosses boss/ came up to me a once or twice and told me "hey, you shouldn't work past PM", particularly in my first few days, _and most importantly_ they left too, that would have set an excellent example on how to have a work-life balance. I've had managers try to nanny my working hours like this. It wasn't fun. I know they thou…

> I've had managers try to nanny my working hours like this. It wasn't fun. I know they thought it was a good gesture, but if I have a spare hour or two in the evening and a good idea I want to try out before bed, I don't want anyone telling me I can't work right now.

Author here: I didn't make this clear, but Grey only forced me to go home once.

The important message was that I could, if I wanted, claim my own time back. I was free to clock off early, help a friend move out, whatever it might be that my life asked of me.

When I wanted to work hard I did, and was never forced not to. But provided I wasn't harming my team, I was free to pick and choose when I did that and disconnect past the hours I was strictly required to be available.

Definitely not nannying, in fact I think this is the most adult way you can treat your employees.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#33

Balance, or the lack thereof, is one of the most common pain points for the juniors I've worked with. New college grads can really struggle with finding balance after transitioning out of college. The undergrad environment has well defined start and end points for each class and everyone gets the same or similar workloads, so it's possible to calibrate off of peers and consult with advisors or mentors who have gone t…

> New college grads can really struggle with finding balance after transitioning out of college > Ambitious juniors often see this and decide to go all-in The most common issue I see with dedicated juniors is when work is, by a large margin, the biggest thing in their life. When work is your thing, it only takes one thing to go badly at work for it to impact your happiness. Given how much can go wrong in a career tha…

> The most common issue I see with dedicated juniors is when work is, by a large margin, the biggest thing in their life.

Great point. The transition from college to work is a shocking experience for many. Modern colleges are excellent at keeping people socialized, entertained, and surrounding them with activities to do and people to meet.

Then they enter the working world and suddenly it's not so easy. They need to make an effort to socialize, meet new people, and schedule activities. They need to plan ahead to find something to do on the weekend and coordinate with others to find people to do it with.

I think many of them gravitate toward work because they think it will fill the void left when they left the ultra-social college environment. It takes time and effort to re-learn how to add activities and friends to your life when they're not falling into your lap.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#34
A point that's often missed is: some people don't perceive certain types of work as work. I know it's a cliche, and if this sentence doesn't immediate resonate with you, you're probably not a part of that group I am referring to - and that's ok. Don't feel like you somehow are not as cool or special, quite to the contrary - you're probably more balanced and overall healthier.

But that doesn't change the fact that the group I am referring to does exist. In the first 20 years of my life, I couldn't really be motivated to do much. And then my college roommate invited me to start a company together. On day 3 or 4 into this venture, I remember being so excited by what was happening that I literally couldn't sleep and instead stayed up all night. Once the sun went up in the morning, I was looking at the fruits of my labor and had the type of endorphins flowing through my body that I had never experienced before.

I was genuinely shocked that I loved this project as much as I did. I had never thought about starting a business before, had never stayed up before for work, and never looked up to people who seemed to work really hard. In hindsight, the only sign of some type of an inclination towards entrepreneurship that I had exhibited before was a strange admiration for the characters in Douglas Coupland's Microserfs. We read that book as a part of an English class, and most of the students were highly critical of the lifestyle described in the book. I too could tell that those characters were highly out of balance, but I couldn't shake off the feeling that I would have loved to be a part of that group.

20 years later, I am looking back on a successful entrepreneurial career, and can more accurately trace back that fascination with entrepreneurship to a personal trauma that I experienced as a child. As it turns out, that trauma caused a lot of discomfort in my development years, which led to this unhealthy obsession for entrepreneurship, which in turn gave me passion and motivation to push myself to the limit, and which somehow resulted in success that made the whole thing somehow... worthwhile. As I grew older, I did thankfully find a way to diversify my life and interests, and today you would describe me as fairly average in my work-life balance.

Just wanted to share this because PG's "How to work hard" essay caused a lot of discussion, and I think many people didn't take away from it one important bit: if that essay didn't resonate with you, it's ok - your life didn't include the same type of influences that shaped PG into becoming the person that he became. That might be a good or a bad thing, but it's a thing and let's all just realize that each one of us has to find a recipe that's authentic to us and fits the exact right formula of our individual lives.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#35
Why do we believe people when they say they work hard or used to work hard?

Most successful people I've observed at close quarters box clever and definitely never fully switch off with respect to their interests. But work hard as in slogging on something where there is no proportional reward? Never seen that.

Of course they all say they work so hard, or that they once in the mists of time worked very hard. But what evidence is there? Usually none.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#36

A point that's often missed is: some people don't perceive certain types of work as work. I know it's a cliche, and if this sentence doesn't immediate resonate with you, you're probably not a part of that group I am referring to - and that's ok. Don't feel like you somehow are not as cool or special, quite to the contrary - you're probably more balanced and overall healthier. But that doesn't change the fact that the…

I think you make some really good points here. I had a few experiences like the one you describe: I recall a small side project where I would wake, work for ~14hrs until I slept, then rinse and repeat for a few days until I got the work done.

It wasn't deliberate, I just really loved what I was doing.

> obsession for entrepreneurship, which in turn gave me passion and motivation to push myself to the limit, and which somehow resulted in success that made the whole thing somehow... worthwhile

If you haven't watched it, there was a Diary of a CEO episode the other week with Tom Blomfield. He mentions how he felt driven by a need for success and recognition, and how weird it was that after Monzo this seems to have disappeared.

I think those motivations are quite common, and expect you'd recognise a lot in that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP2_QOCrVO4

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#37
A friend of mine who fell for the "work hard forever" idea just wrote a lengthy post venting about what this did to her: when you spend all your free time working/studying, and constantly turn down invitations to go do stuff with friends, people stop inviting you to things. And you drift out of friend groups because of this. Your social skills atrophy, you have no idea how to try and make new friends on the rare occasions you pry yourself away from work. Work becomes your life. And even if your work is something you love to do, that never involves a toxic workplace or moral qualms or any other problems, there's still emotional needs work will never, ever fulfill.

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#38

A friend of mine who fell for the "work hard forever" idea just wrote a lengthy post venting about what this did to her: when you spend all your free time working/studying, and constantly turn down invitations to go do stuff with friends, people stop inviting you to things. And you drift out of friend groups because of this. Your social skills atrophy, you have no idea how to try and make new friends on the rare occa…

https://www.thebalancecareers.com/work-life-balance-and-jugg...

“Imagine life as a game in which you are juggling some five balls in the air. You name them - work, family, health, friends and spirit - and you're keeping all of these in the air. You will soon understand that work is a rubber ball. If you drop it, it will bounce back. But the other four balls - family, health, friends and spirit - are made of glass. If you drop one of these, they will be irrevocably scuffed, marked, nicked, damaged or even shattered. They will never be the same. You must understand that and strive for balance in your life." —- Bryan Dyson, then the President and CEO of Coca-Cola Enterprises, delivering a commencement speech at Georgia Tech

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#39

This is great, and covers aspects of work balance/integration/whatever-you-want-to-call-it that I haven't seen talked about as much. A big problem I see on an ongoing basis is the confusion between time spent working and work produced. After ~10 years in this field, I feel like a pitcher who loses their fastball sometimes, and have learned when to sense that and pull myself from the game (stop working). I feel for pe…

Author of the post here: what you say about pulling yourself away and recovering really resonates with me.

What I'm working on is absolutely a factor in my interest, and how much energy I'm able to give- equally, how much the work pulls me in.

But I've noticed I increasingly work in ebbs and flows, probably as I become more aware of my energy levels and how I want to commit my time. It doesn't help that my calendar has become terrible for engineering work over the last year, and I actively schedule weeks of "get properly involved in the building" alongside all the other responsibilities my role entails.

Personally, I find the flexibility to distance yourself like this is really important. It helps me recover my energy and make sure I'm properly there when it matters.

> new child related

On this note, I think you might have found your smoking gun. This is hard enough by itself, but alongside all those others changes- I hope you're holding up!

Re: On working too hard: finding balance, and lessons learned from others

#40
I think my brain is working hardest either in the shower or in the early morning just before waking up.

Why? Because my best ideas for work(!) typically appears at these ‘non-working’ times.

How to balance this - I don’t know… The ideas ‘just’ arrive at that time, likely because the mind is relaxed and ‘subconsciously’ is working harder than while ‘actively’ working.

The ideas are then refined and implemented during normal business hours.

PS.: There’s a lot of positive talk about the so-called ‘four day work week’.

I have tried burning the midnight oil, it’s only feasible for short periods of time, so I do not believe that hard work === many hours!

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