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The most precious resource is agency

simonsarris.substack.com

151–160 of 340 posts

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#151
I understand this article's point, but I think it's nonsense, to be honest. It seems like it's saying something, but, really, it's not. It might even be making its readers stupider, sadly.

Walt Disney, Leonardo DaVinci, Steve Jobs, et. al. had gigs at 13, so now we draw grand conclusions about how shitty kids have it today?

Nah. Doesn't credit.

Even accepting as given the undemonstrated premise of the article, that society today has fewer "onramps" for children to contribute, what conclusion can be drawn from that?

Do we really have fewer (let us call them) extreme contributors today?

Have all extreme contributors had childhood onramps, or are those cited in the article cherry-picked examples?

Are all adults who worked as children demonstrably greater contributors as adults than those who did not? Or are they about equivalent?

We need answers to those questions before asserting anything at all about how society is failing its children.

Now, let us turn our attention to the question of childhood today versus that of even pre-1970. A child today is by all measures safer and healthier than a child of any time in the past: child mortality, disease, environmental pollution, heavy-metal poison, homicide, abuse, all down globally as well as in the US.

Let us take as given (not demonstrated, but why not, for the sake of argument) that somehow the rate of extreme contributors is lower now than in the past. Is it really the lack of child labor or is there something else causing this (again, so-far imaginary) problem? Just concluding "lack of avenues to contribute is the problem" could create other problems without addressing the root cause.

Definitely, give kids who are eager to take on adult responsibilities some, and let them figure out how much they can handle. Let them fail safely, or succeed wildly, but let them be kids.

That's a great message, but it does not need to be couched in terms of some grand societal failure. That part is bullshit.

Furthermore, I suspect that there is no formula to making these extreme contributors other than (continue) to make society a better, safer, healthier, wealthier context for children to contribute, or not, as they will.

What is up with HN promoting articles advocating working 13 year olds? Here's another, just as nonsensical: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27675603

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#152
The article raises some good points, but I also have some strong reservations.

Take the examples, for instance. The author puts a lot of stock in what Nabokov and Da Vinci did themselves in their youth and calls this 'agency'. But at the same time, conveniently or inadvertently, the author doesn't expand and look at the broader picture in which those individuals lived and how that determined their lives.

Nabokov was born to a very wealthy and prominent Russian family with ties to Russian high nobility. He had access to a breadth of networks, resources and means to develop into the person he became. Without disparaging the his talent as a writer, it's equally important to acknowledge that his early life wasn't burdened by poverty, bad health, illness, instability and so on. Nabokov himself even described his childhood as "perfect" and "cosmopolitan".

Da Vinci, on the other hand, was born out of wedlock outside Florence to a lower class family. The historical record regarding his life before his arrival Florence is fragmentary at best. What can be deduced is that his early childhood must have been tenuous and turbulent, living in different homes with different family members (grandparents, uncles, mother). His own parents went on to live separate lives as well. We do know that he only received very basic education - reading and writing vernacular - as a child.

Da Vinci's life was determined by a stroke of chance. At age 14, his family moved to Florence and he was lucky enough to end up a studio boy at Verrocchio. He became an apprentice at 17 and received 7 more years of training. Even so, at the same time, it's clear that his family wasn't wealthy and so he might as well have ended up in a very different place at the time e.g. working as a clerk for a budding bank, notary, or even an industry like a tannery.

It should be clear that 'agency' only counts for so much. Neither Nabokov or Da Vinci are exceptional as millions of others also engage in poetry or drawing in early childhood. External circumstances such as birth and chance are just as determining. From a historical perspective, the author can be perceived as falling into the traps of hindsight bias and survivorship bias in that regard.

Even so, the article does make a valid criticsm regarding education systems. Transferring knowledge through rote exercising and standardized testing serves a purpose. The upshot is that it allows for scaling basic education towards millions, which is no small feat to accomplish. The downside is that doing so ignores the needs, traits, ambitions, strengths and weaknesses of individuals.

Modern educations systems were first formed during the 19th century Industrial Revolution, and further grew during the 20th century when humanity experience profound growth, economical and technological advancements. It should be noted that there never was a unified vision on education, and the argument in the article isn't new by any means.

During the early 20th century, incumbent education was heavily criticized by emancipatory movements. Helen Parkhurst, Maria Montessori, and John Dewey were influential educational thinkers who addressed some of the issues touched upon by the author as they laid the groundworks for an educational framework called the Dalton Plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalton_Plan

At the same time, Célestin Freinet is another influential educational thinker who created the Freinet system, addressing the same criticisms, which is widely adopted throughout the world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A9lestin_Freinet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freinet_Modern_School_Movement

Finally, the article betrays a fallacy hidden in it's subtitle: The world is a very malleable place. To an extent, the world is malleable. But one only controls one's actions, less so the outcomes. Human life is complex, unpredictable and capricious. The impact of some decisions can sometimes only be gauged several decades into the future.

While we consider Da Vinci a succesful individual, a young Leonardo would quite likely have been just as anxious about what what the long future held in store for him as the next young person today. In that regard, it might come across as ironic that Vasari has recorded Leonardo lamenting in his deathbed, aged 67, that "he had offended against God and men by failing to practice his art as he should have done."

In the end, it's not unwarranted to consider the author's question "Do children today have useful childhoods?" carrying a due amount of presumptuousness as well. While lamenting how society tends to shoehorn millions into a corset of conformance towards norms and values, it would be quite ironical to fall into the same trap and subject younger generations to different, yet at the same time equally high, expectations and standards maximally living up to purported 'agency' given for the sake of 'agency'.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#153

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

Because risk. Rich, privileged people can try different things with zero risk of becoming destitute. And that's how they practically stumble into new opportunities. Adam Neumann was making collapsible heels and toddler knee-pads before he decided to try the pyramid that is WeWork, which ultimately bought him a private jet and multiple houses.

Me? I didn't have a chance to "try" things. My room for error was zero. Must get above 90 average. Must get scholarship. MUST find job. MUST be there at 9AM. MUST pay rent.

Now I am saving money to take one year off to work on my own thing, but only because my first future ex-wife works for NYC and I can be on her insurance. Without that safety net, at 40, no way.

So, not everyone can be born a failson like Jared Kushner, but what we CAN have is a safety net to let people take risks.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daycare. The point is that school is, first and foremost, a daycare. All the talk about education is just marketing.

Unfortunately college puts up the same barriers. Much of the time I spent in high school learning to code was for nothing, because my university wouldn't let me even attempt to test out of the first- and second-year courses. In another instance they also wouldn't let me count a graduate statistics course for a baby-stats elective requirement. "We WoULdn'T bE an AccREdiTeD iNStiTutION if wE lEt yOU do THat!" I ended u…

I had a similar experience, with my university and AP classes.

University would not accept the AP classes, and basically two years of college to learn what I had already been taught in high-school.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#155
post #22

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

> The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically about it. On the flip side, if you step outside the bubble of comfort that Western society generally affords people, you'll find that life is "nasty, brutish & short" as Hobbes put it. We've come a very very long way in a short time towards raising our standard of living and our expectations for what our lives…

I'm positive to your overall sentiment that we should remember the physical health and comfort which we have achieved.

The Hobbes quote, however, does not apply. Hobbes was comparing life with/without a sufficiently strong Leviathan ('central government') to provide basic protection of property rights, or at least a semblance of such protection.

But the "long way" to which you refer, the physical comfort of modern life, is the fruit of the industrial revolution, roughly 150 years of history.

Hobbes was much earlier, he probably never saw the IR coming.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#156

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

I never did that and will never do that (at almost 50 y/o); I was raised with Christianity but no-one could answer my questions at a very young age so I have no faith which means I have 1 go at this life. So no offices, suits, bosses, jobs, meetings or whatever. I had 2 kind of stressful years in my life and I am well off; I do whatever I want and is good for my family. I think it's a good score. It helps living in the EU; I never had to worry about living on the streets which makes some decisions easier.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#157
post #153

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

Because risk. Rich, privileged people can try different things with zero risk of becoming destitute. And that's how they practically stumble into new opportunities. Adam Neumann was making collapsible heels and toddler knee-pads before he decided to try the pyramid that is WeWork, which ultimately bought him a private jet and multiple houses. Me? I didn't have a chance to "try" things. My room for error was zero . Mu…

> Because risk. Rich, privileged people can try different things with zero risk of becoming destitute

You can do that as well in many EU countries. Without being rich.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#158
post #22

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

> The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically about it. On the flip side, if you step outside the bubble of comfort that Western society generally affords people, you'll find that life is "nasty, brutish & short" as Hobbes put it. We've come a very very long way in a short time towards raising our standard of living and our expectations for what our lives…

Universal income would be a next step in that.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#159
In the summer of '99, when I was 11, my father asked me to reverse engineer a proprietary data format because he would be needing that a couple of months later. He showed me how I could manipulate the data using the proprietary software, and how to inspect the changes using a hex editor. It went very slow, and I'm sure answering my questions and explaining it cost him more time in the end, but I learned so much at a young age and he was really happy with the results. Knowing that it was actually useful made it all the more interesting for me.

If I recall correctly he gave me 100 guilders (about $50) for a couple of days of work. The data format was for HP ChemStation, good memories.

Re: The most precious resource is agency

#160

One of the biggest tragedies isn't just that the childhood is wasted, but that many people never learn to have agency once it is available. I'm not saying you need to start your own business or anything like that, but it seems like most people live their lives never questioning the scripts that are given to them. The basic life script we all seem to have in western society seems pretty awful when you think critically…

I went and did the other side, living nontraditionally and trying to be what I wanted. I just applied for a regular job. Because to be honest, it’s gonna be pretty sweet having a fat bank account, even if it’ll take till I’m 50 to have FU money. My current hypothesis is that the team is all that matters. The work can be the most boring, crud-type work. As long as you’re working with people you like on something vague…

Could you elaborate on what living non-traditionally looked like for you? What was your thought process going off script, and what made you decide to change course back to a regular job?
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