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Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

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Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#221

Post by [deleted] »

conanbatt wrote: post #96
whoisjuan wrote: post #39

Already said in this thread, but I think it's ridiculous that when people think about abusive big tech, they never think about Intuit. Their business is literally the idea of creating friction in federal and local tax systems so they can extort people in exchange of removing some of those synthetic frictions (emphasis on "some"). A sinister business model in every possible way.

The monopoly is the government though, not Intuit...There is no way you can argue that Intuit has monopoly power over government!

[deleted]

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#222

Post by avalys »

fleddr wrote: post #190
avalys wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the free market, it’s a perfect example of what’s wrong with government. The fact that the IRS rules are set by politicians and bureaucrats, not accountable to market forces, are what allows this corrupt situation to persist in the first place. You can’t say “the IRS makes this too complicated in order to funnel money into Intuit’s pocket so I am going to pay my taxes elsewhere.” And it's a perfect exampl…

Just to give a counter example here: In my country (Netherlands), the IRS itself provides the software. Once a year, you download and run it. Everything is prefilled: income from work, bank accounts, mortgages. So if you're a boring, financially stable person, the entire process is literally next -> next -> next -> submit. Filling out tax forms is not a value-add economic activity, so I have no idea why you'd insist…

Your question is, why isn't the federal government of the United States, a country of 330M people, as efficient and effective as the government of the Netherlands, a country of 17M people?

Large organizations are less efficient than small organizations. This is true even in private enterprise. Large bloated, centralized government bureaucracies are the most inefficient of all.

Part of the "classic American anti-government stance" comes from the realization that American society is too large and too diverse to be effectively governed by a centralized bureaucracy. This is why you hear people complaining about "state's rights".

However, for people who explicitly wish to control society and don't care about efficiency, centralized power is great. It means they only have to win one argument to impose their will on 330M people, not 50 separate arguments. This is why so much attention is paid to the federal government in the US, as opposed to state or local government.

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#223

Post by gremlinsinc »

KorematsuFred wrote: post #153
toomuchtodo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://www.propublica.org/series/the-turbotax-trap “ProPublica has long detailed how Intuit, the maker of TurboTax, and other companies have worked against making tax preparation easier and less costly. They have lobbied to ban the IRS from offering free, simple tax filing. And they have deceived customers who should qualify for the Free File product.”

I find this criticism somewhat weird. It is very common for companies or even individuals to promote and support policies that benefit themselves. Intuit is seeking self interest here. But why would IRS and our elected representatives cave in ? Are these people so clueless or unethical that they do not care about their constituents anymore ? And if that is the case I don't see how anyone can bell the intuit's cat.

Hypothetical: I make kerosene.... we made a bad batch that doesn't burn just right and could hinder products it's used in...

We're located in California.

We've paid politicians to look the other way while we drop it over forests, in fire zones. It's a lot easier than getting rid of it other ways.

We're enriching ourselves which is the American way, so there's definitely no problem with this, even though it may make fire season a major bitch for some people, luckily all our CEO's have homes in safer areas that won't be affected....

^ Are you saying you'd say to the above scenario: I have no problems with this.

If the answer to the above question is you would say that...

What's it like to be devoid of morality? Is there anything resembling a conscious at all?

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#224

Post by [deleted] »

conanbatt wrote: post #96
whoisjuan wrote: post #39

Already said in this thread, but I think it's ridiculous that when people think about abusive big tech, they never think about Intuit. Their business is literally the idea of creating friction in federal and local tax systems so they can extort people in exchange of removing some of those synthetic frictions (emphasis on "some"). A sinister business model in every possible way.

The monopoly is the government though, not Intuit...There is no way you can argue that Intuit has monopoly power over government!

[deleted]

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#225

Post by Falling3 »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #117
macspoofing wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobbying is a fact of life in a democracy. For any government regulation, law, program, etc. there are multitudes of lobby groups on all sides of each issue. Why in this case is this such a big unethical crime? Lots of government programs are inefficient and expensive due to interest groups - that will never ever change. Welcome to Democracy.

Lobbying is bad when it creates outcomes I don't like.

Lobbying is bad when it helps a single company at the expense of tens of millions of citizens. The situation is far more objective than you're pretending.

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#227

Post by GavinMcG »

maxmamis wrote: post #88
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> should literally be nationalized Political note: calls for nationalisation, in American politics, is a gift to the other side. It lets one paint the opposition as extremists without grounding in U.S. Constitutional law or the economic history of countries that regularly expropriate property. I get the impulse. But literally any other phrasing—massive fines, criminal prosecution, open-licensing requirements, et cete…

> Political note: calls for nationalisation, in American politics, is a gift to the other side. Perhaps you should rephrase this as "calls for nationalization run counter to my own free-market ideology" rather than a) assuming you know what everybody else thinks, and b) suggesting that conventional wisdom should dictate the bounds of acceptable discourse. Not to mention, plenty of countries — the US included — have s…

A practical understanding of the country's political messaging isn't the same thing as free-market ideology. I'm not especially free-market, but I recognize that poor messaging gets picked up by Fox News (for example) who beat their drum over and over and over again such that the underlying ideas have a huge uphill battle to fight.

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#228

Post by Falling3 »

macspoofing wrote: post #138
Miraste wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This very article explains how they're deliberately blocking millions of desperately impoverished people from receiving billions of dollars. How is that not a big deal?

>they're deliberately blocking millions of desperately impoverished people from receiving billions of dollars. They aren't. Those programs don't require Intuit to claim.

The problem isn't that Intuit wants to charge something instead or nothing. The filing fee is not the harmful part. The problem is they can't directly ensure people use their service. But they can indirectly make it hard to file without using their service by lobbying against tax code simplications that would benefit most fillers.

Your argument makes it sound like you do not know what the issue in question actually is.

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#229

Post by Miraste »

macspoofing wrote: post #138
Miraste wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This very article explains how they're deliberately blocking millions of desperately impoverished people from receiving billions of dollars. How is that not a big deal?

>they're deliberately blocking millions of desperately impoverished people from receiving billions of dollars. They aren't. Those programs don't require Intuit to claim.

Recipients' other options are hire a CPA (obviously untenable), find the correct forms, calculate the credit themselves, do the rest of their returns by hand, and submit those (difficult for the target groups) or... pay to use TurboTax. That's the exact dilemma this new site would've helped solve if it hadn't been sabotaged.

Re: Intuit sabotages the Child Tax Credit

#230

Post by fleddr »

avalys wrote: post #222
fleddr wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to give a counter example here: In my country (Netherlands), the IRS itself provides the software. Once a year, you download and run it. Everything is prefilled: income from work, bank accounts, mortgages. So if you're a boring, financially stable person, the entire process is literally next -> next -> next -> submit. Filling out tax forms is not a value-add economic activity, so I have no idea why you'd insist…

Your question is, why isn't the federal government of the United States, a country of 330M people, as efficient and effective as the government of the Netherlands, a country of 17M people? Large organizations are less efficient than small organizations. This is true even in private enterprise. Large bloated, centralized government bureaucracies are the most inefficient of all. Part of the "classic American anti-gover…

Population size doesn't matter for taxes, yet having many different types of rules (perhaps at state level?) could indeed be a complicating factor. If that's the case, I'll take your word for it.

But do hear me out once more. The dutch tax system is anything but simple. It has an extremely complex rule set.

And because it is so complex, leaving the understanding of it to citizens has led to an enormous burden of processing and correcting faulty entries, staffing massive support desks, and so on.

So they solved complexity, centrally. The rules are just as complex as before, but the process and UI make it a breeze for a good 75%.

With this I mean to say that complexity is in fact another reason to solve things centrally. Why would you want to spread complexity around?

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