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GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

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Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#331

Post by deckard1 »

giansegato wrote: post #32
goodpoint wrote: post #27

What is more concerning is that the training kernel belongs exclusively one private company. Microsoft. It can become a massive (and unfair) competitive advantage. Furthermore, Copilot will not work with less popular languages and also prevent popular languages from evolving.

This feature is effectively impossible to replicate. Only Microsoft positioned itself to have: - dataset (GitHub) - tech (openai) - training (azure) - platform (vscode) I'm impressed. They did an amazing job from a corporate strategy standpoint. Also directionally things are getting interesting

Is this really anything more than a curiosity toy and a marketing tool?

I took a look at their examples and they are not at all compelling. In one example it generated SQL and somehow knew the columns and tables in a database that it had no context on. So that's a lot of smoke and mirrors going on right there.

Do many developers actually want to work in this manner? That is, being interrupted every time they type with a robot interjection of some Frankenstein code that they now have to go through and review and understand. Personally, this is going to kick me out of the zone/flow too often to be useful. Coding isn't the hard part of my job. If this tool can somehow guess the business requirements of the task at hand, then I'll be impressed.

Even if the tool generates accurate code, if I don't fully understand what it wrote, then what? I'm still stuck digging through documentation and stackoverflow to verify that whatever is in my text editor is correct code. "Code confidently in unfamiliar territory" sounds like a Boeing 737 Max sized disaster in the making.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#332

Post by paxys »

invig wrote: post #88
mrosett wrote: post #67

The second tweet in the thread seems badly off the mark in its understanding of copyright law. > copyright does not only cover copying and pasting; it covers derivative works. github copilot was trained on open source code and the sum total of everything it knows was drawn from that code. there is no possible interpretation of "derivative" that does not include this Copyright law is very complicated (remember Google…

If you can read open source code, learn from it, and write your own code, why can't a computer?

If I read something, "learn" it, and reproduce it word for word (or with trivial edits) even without referencing the original work at all, it is still copyright infringement.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#333

Post by monocasa »

908B64B197 wrote: post #329
monocasa wrote: post #328

Honestly I think a large part of the value add of machine learning is going to be the ability for huge entities to launder intellectual property violations. As an example, my grandfather (an old school EE who got his start on radar systems in the 50s, who then got his radiology MD when my jewish grandmother berated him enough with "engineer's not doctor though...") has some really cool patents around highlighting int…

> Part of me wants to tell him to try selling it as a machine learning model and just obfuscate the fact that the model was carefully hand written rather than back propagated. How many models are back-propagated first and then hand-tuned?

That's a great question. I had assumed that the workflow of an ML engineer consisted of managing the data and a relatively high level set of parameters around a search space of layers and connectivity, as the whole shtick of ML is that the hyperparameter space of the tensors themselves is too complex to grok or tweak when generated from training. But I only have a passing knowledge of the subject, pretty much just enough to get myself in trouble in these kinds of discussions.

Any chance some fantastic HNer could chime in there?

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#334

Post by gdsdfe »

rbarrois wrote: post #239

An interesting impact of this discussion is, for me: within my team at work, we're likely to forbid any use of Github co-pilot for our codebase, unless we can get a formal guarantee from Github that the generated code is actually valid for us to use. By the way, code generated by Github co-pilot is likely incompatible with Microsoft's Contribution License Agreement [1]: "You represent that each of Your Submission is…

How would you know if copilot was used or not?!

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#335

Post by MaxBarraclough »

xfer wrote: post #326
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those left behind working more hours for less Doing what? Isn't the concern here that automation will push many people out of the workforce entirely?

Well as long as humans are more energy-efficient to deploy than robots you will always have a job. It might mean conditions for most humans will be like a century ago.

> as long as humans are more energy-efficient to deploy than robots

Energy efficiency isn't relevant. When switchboard operators were replaced by automatic telephone exchanges, it wasn't to reduce energy consumption.

The question is whether an automated solution can perform satisfactorily while offering upfront and ongoing costs that make them an economically viable replacement for human workers (i.e. paid employees).

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#336

Post by klipt »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #311
visarga wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If simple snippet similarity is enough to trigger the GPL copyright defense I think it goes too far. Seems like GPL has become an obstacle to invention. I learned to run away when I see it.

It's not limited to similar or identical code. The issue applies to anything 'derived' from copyrighted code. The issue is simply most visible with similar or identical code. If you have code from an independent origin, this issue doesn't apply. That's how clean room designs bypass copyright. Similarly if the upstream code waives its copyright in certain types of derived works (compiler/runtime exemptions), it doesn'…

So if you work on an open source project and learn some techniques from it, and then in your day job you use a similar technique, is that a copyright violation?

Basically does reading GPL code pollute your brain and make it impossible to work for pay later?

If so you should only ever read BSD code, not GPL.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#337

Post by uncomputation »

izgzhen wrote: post #323
naikrovek wrote: post #286

I don't see the point of this tool, independent of the resulting code being derivative of GPL code or not. being able to produce valid code is not the bottleneck of any developer effort. no projects fail because code can't be typed quickly enough. the bottleneck is understanding how the code works, how to design things correctly, how to make changes in accordance with the existing design, how to troubleshoot existing…

It doesn’t calm to solve the bottleneck either. On the contrary, it clearly states that its mission is to solve the easy parts better so developers can focus better on the true challenging engineering problems as you mentioned.

This reminds me of a startup pitch where it’s always “oh we take care of x so you don’t have to,” but the problem is now I just have another thing to take care of. I cannot speak for people who use Copilot “fluently,” but I know for every chunk of code it spat out I would need to read every line and make sure “Is this right? Is the return type what I want? Will this loop terminate? Is ‘scan’ the right API? Is that string formatted properly? Can I optimize this?” etc. To me it’s hardly “solving the easy parts,” but rather putting the passenger’s hands on the wheel.

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#338

Post by yesbabyyes »

function_seven wrote: post #247
yuppiepuppie wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, that got meta super fast. Its like a mobius strip!

It can always get more meta. For example, the AI tool that Microsoft's lawyers use ("Co-Counsel"), will be filing the DMCA notices and subsequenct lawsuits against Co-Pilot generated code. This will result in a massive caseload for the courts, so naturally they'll turn to their AI tool ("DocketPlus Pro") to adjudicate all the cases. Only thing left is to enter these AI-generated judgements into Etherium smart contrac…

Have you read Accelerando by 'cstross? It plays out kind of like this, only taken to a tangent. Notably, it's written before ethereum or bitcoin were conceived. Great storyline.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#339

Post by lwhi »

thundergolfer wrote: post #8

Attempts to litigate any license violation are going to get precisely nowhere I bet, but I find the actual license violation argument persuasive. This is an excellent example of how the AI singularity/revolution/whatever is a total distraction and that a much bigger and more serious issue is how AI is becoming so effective at turning the output of cheap/free human mental labour into capital. If AI keeps getting bette…

21st century alchemy!

Re: GitHub Copilot as open source code laundering?

#340

Post by function_seven »

yesbabyyes wrote: post #338
function_seven wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can always get more meta. For example, the AI tool that Microsoft's lawyers use ("Co-Counsel"), will be filing the DMCA notices and subsequenct lawsuits against Co-Pilot generated code. This will result in a massive caseload for the courts, so naturally they'll turn to their AI tool ("DocketPlus Pro") to adjudicate all the cases. Only thing left is to enter these AI-generated judgements into Etherium smart contrac…

Have you read Accelerando by 'cstross? It plays out kind of like this, only taken to a tangent. Notably, it's written before ethereum or bitcoin were conceived. Great storyline. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerando

I have not. But I will. Thanks!
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