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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#261

Post by wolverine876 »

vmception wrote: post #255
naturalauction wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

Direct representation is true democracy. Does democracy mean something else to you? I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy. Or Vice versa. I’ve seen that alot.

> I think you are confusing your indoctrination of good and inclusive with democracy.

People like to talk about good and inclusive as if they aren't universal values. Good is a value in every culture and religion; it's human nature; we aren't sociopaths. Just off the top of my head, there's the fundamentals of the Bible, 'love they neighbor, love thy god'. There's the Mandate of Heaven in Imperial China, which said only a good ruler keeps heaven's mandate and thus their power.

Inclusive is not only part of good, it's necessary to democracy: It requires respecting the votes and believing in the rights of everyone, and practically, freedom requires respecting your neighbor.

The question is, why work so hard to undermine good, including inclusiveness, democracy, and human rights? What an incredible heritage we've been given; what an optimistic history and what opportunity we have to build something even more amazing for the next generation. It takes an very cynical politics to try to undermine that - to give that up for yourself, for an entire generation, for our descendants. People from Washington to Lincoln to Churchill to Gandhi to MLK to all those who have died and struggled in service have worked to bequeath to us our free and good, in large part, society. With everything we've been given, what will we bequeath? Hate, authoritarianism, and climate change? What a shame our generation would be, among the others, if that was what we produced. The question is, what can we accomplish?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#262

Post by wolverine876 »

mucholove wrote: post #228
naturalauction wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

Switzerland is not an inclusive place. It is a democracy.

Then it's not a democracy, because the excluded are denied their self-determination.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#263

Post by wolverine876 »

Dah00n wrote: post #153
bosswipe wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, protests are the impotent desperate cry of the unheard. I love of the free because, no matter how much corruption, we will not lose that voice of last resort. Millions of us are willing to fight to the death to preserve it.

If it doesn't make any difference, why is it important? It seems it is a security valve working directly against the average citizen that is "willing to fight to the death to preserve it". It is there to keep the status quo.

> If it doesn't make any difference

Can you support that? History is filled with protests leading to change. Just looking at 100 years off the top of my head: Women's vote, Gandhi, civil rights, S. Korea, the fall of the Soviet Block, the Arab Spring ...

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#264

Post by wolverine876 »

derefr wrote: post #243
RobertKerans wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Western though. You're right in that it generally doesn't work, but it's well known to only work in specific circumstances. Yes it's part of a political strategy, but the point of it is to demonstrate dignity, and given a state that is susceptible to shame, that greatly aids in the empowerment of blocs within the state to enact change. In retrospect, yes, it's fallacious thinking from the protesters if they…

The logical extreme here, I would think, is mass organized emigration to other countries who have offered to willingly take in HK political refugees.

I know the Chinese government has caught a few escaping by boat, and others have made it. It seems they are against even individual migration.

I would love to give those people a home. People seeking freedom are the ones I want in my country, much more than the powerful people trying to seize more power for themselves.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#265

Post by wolverine876 »

GordonS wrote: post #136
wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

> Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on lies anyway. It's always the same.

The flaw is applying a binary metric: It's not that protestors don't have either absolute power or no power. Protests have influence. Those protests limited the scope of the war and their governments' involvement. Imagine the world if nobody protested, the free hand governments would have had if nobody cared. I can tell you that in my community, the George Floyd protests put political leaders in a position to respond immediately or be swept away by the next vote.

The Iraq War was conducted while constantly pushing back against world opinion. The cost in political capital was high; those protests imposed real costs and real limitations on the leaders. That's how democracy works (though not only through protest).

Whenever you think protests are futile, imagine the world without them. Then get out there and contribute - the world doesn't need people sitting on the sidelines, criticizing. Each person who shows up demonstrates to many others - people who see them, people who know them - that they too have the power, can act, and have a responsibility to do it.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#266

Post by vmception »

wolverine876 wrote: post #262
mucholove wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Switzerland is not an inclusive place. It is a democracy.

Then it's not a democracy, because the excluded are denied their self-determination.

I’m not familiar with that definition

The newest definition I’m aware of is “the original 51% attack”

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#267

Post by wolverine876 »

Dah00n wrote: post #158
GordonS wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

Protests are a legal part of the system as a blow-off valve to let average citizens get rid of their rage. It's there to keep the status quo. It makes no difference without force behind it. As long as the opposing view doesn't feel endangered it is working for them and against the average citizen. As soon as it makes a difference it is no longer protests but a rebellion, which most who will protest doesn't have the s…

> It makes no difference without force behind it.

This is simply a false, anti-democratic trope. Protests interfere with everything from traffic to economies. And much more, they express intent to the leaders: Do something or be voted out of office, because we are motivated. The history of change through protest is very long.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#268

Post by wolverine876 »

tdeck wrote: post #65
ILMostro7 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How and why do authoritarian regimes get toppled? Ultimately, capturing hearts and minds of people throigh peaceful protests is beneficial. The question is not whether protests always work directly and timely even. Wheteher or not special interests play a role, the result is easier reached when there's at least a larger audience that may become allied or organized better. To me, it's a fallacy to say that on the one…

I recently read the book The Dictator's Handbook, which discussed this topic among others. It makes the argument that for such a movement to succeed, the existing regime must be destabilized in a way that makes its key supporters lose confidence in the regime's ability to continue to reward them. Often this is because a leader is sick, or the economy collapses and the leadership runs out of money. When that happens,…

Who wrote the Dictator's Handbook? I haven't heard of it.

But yes, I think that's the basic idea. There are many levers to political power. Sometimes people think that authoritarians rule by fiat, like a god, but they also are balancing and managing many political factors (though not so much the free will of the people).

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#269

Post by wolverine876 »

Dah00n wrote: post #160
baybal2 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please take a look on Kim Jong Fat III, and his kingdom. - multiple military mutinies, now suppressed, check - the entirety of NK civil administration been sent to firing squad, or gulags multiple times, and rebuilt anew every time it fails - financial collapse — you will never financially collapse if you can steal - secession, you cannot secede in NK, even individually. They have machinegunners at the border, shooti…

>do not simply topple, they have to be toppled. Yes, by those next in line. They fall when those one step down from power takes it. That they might use the average citizen to gain power and that it might make it better for them than before is a side effect. It's the same in democratic elections. The average citizen never get the power, it is transferred to someone who might or might not be more aligned with their wis…

No, many are toppled and replaced by democracies. That's where all the democracies came from - they didn't start that way.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#270

Post by nindalf »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #219
nindalf wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. It was simple. In 2008, he had to win a Democratic primary. This meant echoing the stances that would be popular with Democratic primary voters. In Obama’s case, he needed all of the black vote as well. Only 60% of Democrats in 2008 supported marriage equality, compared to 80% in 2020 ( https://news.gallup.com/poll/350486…

>I don’t know why people found Obama’s position on gay marriage so difficult to understand. Because he could have just as easily STFU'd and said some mumbo jumbo without giving a real answer. As a career politician (and well spoken one at that) giving a non-answer that gives both sides hope he'll be on their side was perfectly within his capability.

Oh you know better? He accomplished his goals - being elected twice. Marriage equality also become a reality in his tenure. A big part of that was it going on the ballot with him in 2012 and winning.

Maybe he isn't the one who needs to STFU.

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