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HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

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Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#221

Post by starfallg »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #212
starfallg wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You asserted that key policies will not change. Policy entails a course of action, specifying how aims are achieved. So it isn't a matter of the existence of the 9 dash or 11 dash line, but the route that they would go in pursuing it. I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan). That just smacks of neo-orientalist sinicism. China's dev…

> but the route that they would go in pursuing it. They are occupying the area to assert their claim. I don't see how that would change. They would not abandon their newly built bases or stop Navy patrols. That would be contrary to their sovereignty claim. There's a lot of propaganda on this topic and people are falling for it. But the reality is that China is only following a standard, tried and tested, way to asser…

> They are occupying the area to assert their claim. I don't see how that would change.

They can stop expanding military bases in contested areas for a start. That's already a big change in policy.

> A period of absolute Western dominance that started almost 500 years ago is coming to an end.

What makes China a superpower and Japan not? What economic indicators are you using? Or the UK, France, and India for that matter? Nuclear powers that are able to flatten the population centres of countries on command.

Treating 'The West' as a monolithic entity is just the mirror image of neo-orientalism. In terms of alignment, the ideological chasm between the 1st World / 2nd World during the cold war was larger than the gap between China and the other advanced economies currently. China, having reformed its economy, is more similar to Spain, which resolved a lot of its geopolitical problems after the transition to democracy in the late 70s and early 80s.

The only baggage that China has in terms of geopolitics is the constant navel gazing at the 1800s and Qing's humiliation by the colonial powers. This is a Chinese nationalist narrative that is stoked by the party, but one that doesn't resonate at all with the younger generations.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#222

Post by [deleted] »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #80
vmception wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> remember obama was against marriage equality amongst other things at first It is worth remembering that at that time period, which was just 2008, California literally voted to change its constitution to ban gay marriage, which was purely a popular vote which was successful. If you want 55 electoral college votes, you aren't going to be saying things that ensure the opposite outcome. I don't think it is useful to ha…

Exactly this. To effect policy you have to get elected, and Obama knew quite well that supporting gay marriage in 2008 was a big losing proposition. Regardless of your opinions of Obama's politics, he is not a stupid man. All this nonsense about his position "evolving" is just that, nonsense. Obama was never really against gay marriage, he just needed to have viable positions to get elected.

[deleted]

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#223

Post by ekianjo »

prince781 wrote: post #103
vmception wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Cambridge University Press / APSA study about the United States that shows populist swelling or the popular vote rarely results in any legislative change that matches the sentiment, and legislative changes come from well funded special interests that were already there. It is either purely coincidence when those changes match what the protesters want because special interests became interests, or were alre…

This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.

its not a democracy. its a republic.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#224

Post by snowflake_ptr »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #220
malwarebytess wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And barely legal at that. Right to protest is curtailed bit by bit year by year. It isn't a protest if you have to apply for a permit and have to stay in some "free speech zone."

In some places in America it’s legal to kill protestors. (Florida IIRC recently passed a law granting immunity to people to run over protestors with their car.)

Fact-check: false. The Florida law only applies to rioters, not protestors. "Riot" is defined as:

"three or more people acting with common intent resulting in injury to others, damage to property, or the imminent danger of injury or damage."

There's a second "Aggravated riot":

"25 or more participants cause great bodily harm or more than $5,000 in property damage, uses or threatens to use a deadly weapon, or blocks roadways by force or threat of force."

If you're doing any of the above things, you're not protesting.

The law was most likely the direct result of a violent mob climbing on top of this guy's car in Florida, one of whom the driver hit in his attempts to get away.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#225

Post by throwaway292a9 »

naturalauction wrote: post #214
mucholove wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#226

Post by ekianjo »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #92
nine_k wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a good thought experiment. Gandhi's peaceful protests were successful because they impressed the British public via free press, and the public opinion affected the British government. Now imagine that instead of post-war British, the colonial regime were held by their contemporary Stalin. How much would a peaceful protest achieve?

It's obviously multifactorial, and I do not diminish Gandhi's efforts, but it would be hard to ignore Britain's diminished capabilities after WW2 as having a role in Britain letting go of India. They simply had no capacity to control a country like India on the other side of the world in their state at the end of WW2, so might as well save as much face while they can.

Not just a question of capacity. The British Empire almost fell to Hitler's ambitions and while Great Britain was never invaded it definitely looked a lot weaker than what it was supposed to. This meant that the British Empire was far from invincible and definitely led the path to decolonisation.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#227

Post by simonh »

dillondoyle wrote: post #41
vmception wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Cambridge University Press / APSA study about the United States that shows populist swelling or the popular vote rarely results in any legislative change that matches the sentiment, and legislative changes come from well funded special interests that were already there. It is either purely coincidence when those changes match what the protesters want because special interests became interests, or were alre…

cool article. really long I skimmed it so far. seems focused on comparing economic elite/interest groups to common population, which would skew the policy measured to tangible economic/business outcomes? My first thought to your comment was an opposing example of gay rights. Sure gay marriage was SCOTUS but it first changed as policy at the state level. politicians changed because it became popular enough and strong…

I think company policies and advocacy has actually made a significant positive difference on some of these issues. In some of the big banks and other corporations, HR departments fall over themselves to promote LGBTQ representation, minority right champion programmes, inviting in diverse speakers and setting up representation forums.

Yes I know most of it is meaningless me-too bullshit and to an extent is even done cynically to make themselves look good as much as enact actual change. It's largely done to make hiring easier, but nevertheless the fact that big companies openly and publicly promote these attitudes does matter to politicians. As big employers, companies get a say in local, regional and national policy development. They comment on and influence advertising, safety, accessibility, transport and zoning regulations. They are big donors to political campaigns. Over time the fact that they have consistently and persistently pushed the same narrative has I think had a normalising effect.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#228

Post by mucholove »

naturalauction wrote: post #214
mucholove wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics. The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail. One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a li…

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

Switzerland is not an inclusive place. It is a democracy.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#229

Post by naturalauction »

throwaway292a9 wrote: post #225
naturalauction wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

how so? citizens don't want more noisy minarets, the people that want the minarets can stay in the middle east.

>citizens don't want more noisy minarets

The referendum wasn't on noise or the legality of minarets broadcasting sound though, it was on the structures themselves. Churches can still build steeples (or even noisy belltowers). I fail to see why the simple construction of a minaret harms anyone any more than say a steeple of a church of a different denomination. If anything it just seems like legislation to tell Muslims that they are not welcome in Switzerland.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#230

Post by naturalauction »

mucholove wrote: post #228
naturalauction wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President. But women weren't allowed to vote (in every canton) until 1991. There is a ban on new minarets being constructed (but not other tall buildings). The anti-immigration referendum couldn't be implemented as would have led to dramatic consequences for Switzerland's relat…

Switzerland is not an inclusive place. It is a democracy.

Perhaps, but I would cite some of these issues as examples of "populist tyrannical capture" that were not prevented by the Swiss system.
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