HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests • Hacker News Board

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#201

Post by robjan » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:09 AM UTC

iheartlife wrote: post #137

Bayart wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HK is wealthy because of where it is. Good luck trying to replicate that in the Falklands or on some rock in the Caribbeans.

Historically that might have been the case, today HK is rich because of its (financial) regulations that was mainly inherited from the british. HK is still one of the incorporation centers of the the world (akin to Delaware in US) as well as a major financial hub.

This is because it's the main route for money going in and out of China. Pretty much all of the commercial activity in Hong Kong is either trading/investing activities with China or facilitating trade/investment in China

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#202

Post by dumb1224 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:17 AM UTC

csomar wrote: post #197

dumb1224 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Democratically, independent and small countries like New Zealand are only possible today because of the world order the US has placed. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping China from walking to New Zealand and declaring it New China. This sounds a bit outlandish to me. I respect what your sub message might be but in real world scenario it's quite exaggerated.

Before World War II that was what the world was about for most of its history. Big empires expanding further. Smaller city-states existed through complex diplomatic relations. If they didn't have these, all odds are off.

Of course that's classic historic imperialism I agree, however like you said we are not in such an era anymore and no one, least likely China is to become what you suspected due to the complex economic and political ties.

I thought it's worth having an intellectual debate to encourage a better world for everyone, not just polarised opinions that's all.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#203

Post by rorykoehler » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:32 AM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #19

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

>The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerable to bad PR, I mean we're talking about the same government on the bad side of the Tank Man photo. I think that's kind of obvious. The difference is in HK I don't think people were anticipating China to completely break the Basic Law and the handover agreement. They were protesting the elected HK government, no…

Over 1 million marched against the 2nd Gulf war in London and it was pointless. Anyone who was paying attention knew the wmd evidence was most likely fabricated. It's the same all over the world.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#204

Post by WastingMyTime89 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:34 AM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #77

Seirdy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How and why do authoritarian regimes topple? Multiple overlapping reasons, some of which include: - the military overthrows the rest of the executive/legislative powers - Gross incompetence resulting in the government's self-destruction - Financial collapse - Secession - Very strong external pressures (invasion, economic destruction, etc). - Multiple violent insurrections straining executive resources and undermini…

Please take a look on Kim Jong Fat III, and his kingdom. - multiple military mutinies, now suppressed, check - the entirety of NK civil administration been sent to firing squad, or gulags multiple times, and rebuilt anew every time it fails - financial collapse — you will never financially collapse if you can steal - secession, you cannot secede in NK, even individually. They have machinegunners at the border, shooti…

> secession, you cannot secede in NK, even individually. They have machinegunners at the border, shooting everybody trying to run away

That's not what secession means.

Sometimes in authoritarian regimes, a portion of the territory under controls realizes it is powerful enough to be its own master. The ensuing conflicts might then topple the whole thing. That's how the Ottoman Empire fell for example.

Disintegration is always a risk for large entity.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#205

Post by WastingMyTime89 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:40 AM UTC

dumb1224 wrote: post #194

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

I'm wondering why most of the comments here are not discussing the content of the article but rather the general HK protest. Most of people in China understand the value of rule of law. And we never deny that the environment there is far from any democratic western society. But if you read the article and are the readers of the mentioned media outlets you would agree a bit that those are a little dubious (Post852, Wi…

So just to be clear you actually believe that media being populist justify abitrary detentions, jailing people from indefinite duration without ever putting them to trial while threatening them with life in prison if not straight murder?

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#206

Post by starfallg » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:42 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #192

starfallg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If tomorrow the whole of China became a democracy very little to nothing of their key policies and aims would change No idea why you would say that. China's policy focus would immediately change. Domestically it can no longer afford to focus solely on middle/upper-class growth due to the need to appease the majority of the population still living on low wages. The transparency of the decision making would also cause…

> No idea why you would say that. I was focussing on foreign policy and geopolitics, which really hasn't changed much since before the PRC. For instance their policy in the South China Sea is not something dreamt up by the CCP. The "9-dash line" predates the CCP and the PRC. It dates back to the ROC and as such is still the official policy in Taiwan as well (they keep quiet because they are too weak and don't want to…

You asserted that key policies will not change. Policy entails a course of action, specifying how aims are achieved. So it isn't a matter of the existence of the 9 dash or 11 dash line, but the route that they would go in pursuing it.

I also don't buy the assertion that China's rise as a superpower is somehow more profound than other countries (such as Japan). That just smacks of neo-orientalist sinicism. China's development is modelled on the same export model as Japan's and South Korea's. The difference being whether other advanced economies are willing to absorb and support that model for the remainder of the time that China needs to pivot before succumbing to the middle income trap.

And to your last point, China's GINI coefficient bottomed out in 2015. It has since been rising.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#207

Post by mucholove » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 11:43 AM UTC

prince781 wrote: post #103

vmception wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Cambridge University Press / APSA study about the United States that shows populist swelling or the popular vote rarely results in any legislative change that matches the sentiment, and legislative changes come from well funded special interests that were already there. It is either purely coincidence when those changes match what the protesters want because special interests became interests, or were alre…

This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.

It is quite proudly a Republic with Democratic characteristics.

The only democracy is Switzerland. Switzerland solves the problem of populist tyrannical capture by having an Executive Council instead of a President.

More recently, I’ve come to the conclusion that all Republics are doomed to fail.

One should never let an “expert” make a decision for you. They will over time deceive you because they will always be a likely scapegoat.

It is much better to get it wrong yourself because then you can face the truth instead of constantly being on the watch for a scapegoat and damaging the dynamics of decision making.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#208

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 12:00 PM UTC

naniwaduni wrote: post #190

ceilingcorner wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all three of your examples, mobs didn’t win any wars. Organized political factions won wars, which usually came after a period of chaos. People always forget that the Russian Revolution was followed by war between the Whites and the Reds.

"Mobs don't win, organized political factions win" also characterizes the outcomes of peaceable protest, so what's your point?

I was replying to the parent comment.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#209

Post by refurb » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 12:03 PM UTC

danielheath wrote: post #110

refurb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest that sounds like lying and manipulating the public. Not singling out Obama here because all politicians do it to an extent (the ones who don’t never get far). Just calling out it’s not exactly a virtue.

Is it virtuous to be truthful when that means giving up a chance to meaningfully improve the world? Obama presided over many terrible things, but overall the amount of terrible things dropped during his tenure. Not sure virtue is the right word but it’s more complicated than “lying bad”.

You’re arguing the “ends justify the means” which can often end up in some pretty horrible abuses.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#210

Post by ximeng » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 12:07 PM UTC

elevenoh wrote: post #101

labster wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disney won’t even make gay characters in their animated films, so they can make lots of China dollars. So good luck finding funding for your TV show to deeply hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.

>So good luck finding funding for your TV show to deeply hurt the feelings of the Chinese people. 'to deeply hurt the feelings of Chinese people'... why would you say that? And why would you jump into assuming malice? This is what I see 10 year olds do when cranky.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurting_the_feelings_of_the_...