HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests • Hacker News Board

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#161

Post by skissane » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #129

skissane wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think eventually something is going to break with the CCP system. But that could easily take another 50 years or more. Something many of us will not live to see. The Chinese government sustains itself in power through economic growth and nationalism. That then leads to the two most likely factors (in my opinion) to lead to its eventual downfall – (i) if economic growth gets replaced by stagnation or even decline; (…

Nationalism is a reaction of Chinese society that predates the CCP. The CCP is a product of it, not the cause. Indeed they know that they have to show achievements in that area because that's what the people want. As a matter of fact that have actually being successful in that regards when the Nationalists had failed. On the world stage the focus is on the CCP and China's political regime because it makes selling ant…

The West and India seem to get along much better than the West and China.

Is that simply because India is weaker? Or is it because India and the West are closer in values? India has a pluralist political system; China doesn't.

(There are of course some doubts about what direction India is going in given the Modi government, but even given those concerns, India still has far more of a pluralist political system than China does – BJP is in opposition in 7 state legislatures. In China, opposition is illegal.)

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#162

Post by emptysongglass » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

prince781 wrote: post #103

vmception wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a Cambridge University Press / APSA study about the United States that shows populist swelling or the popular vote rarely results in any legislative change that matches the sentiment, and legislative changes come from well funded special interests that were already there. It is either purely coincidence when those changes match what the protesters want because special interests became interests, or were alre…

This is a reoccurring theme in political science research and yet we still delude ourselves that the United States is a democracy in any form.

It is a democracy. People vote for elected leaders. It's a deeply troubled democracy with a laundry list of items that could make it a more effective representative democracy but that doesn't make it, say, an authoritarian government where the people have no voice in any capacity.

The efficacy of peaceful protests in enacting change is orthogonal to whether the US is a democracy "in any form" or not.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#163

Post by malwarebytess » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

Dah00n wrote: post #158

GordonS wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. Haha, as a westerner, I believe peaceful protest is invariably futile. Take the 2003 protests against the Iraq war for example - 3 million protested in Rome, 1.5 million in Madrid, 1 million in London, and millions more across the west. What happened? They went to war based on…

Protests are a legal part of the system as a blow-off valve to let average citizens get rid of their rage. It's there to keep the status quo. It makes no difference without force behind it. As long as the opposing view doesn't feel endangered it is working for them and against the average citizen. As soon as it makes a difference it is no longer protests but a rebellion, which most who will protest doesn't have the s…

And barely legal at that. Right to protest is curtailed bit by bit year by year. It isn't a protest if you have to apply for a permit and have to stay in some "free speech zone."

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#164

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

wyager wrote: post #5

I lived in HK 2018-2020, leaving around the passage of the “national security law”. I think HK is a perfect case study of a line of fallacious thinking popular among westerners: the idea that peaceful protesting or rule-abiding political opposition is generally effective. This is wrong for at least two reasons. The first mistake is failing to recognize that many governments (case in point) are not nearly as vulnerabl…

> The second mistake is assuming that most (putatively) peaceful protests in the western world are actually the impetus for political change, and not just part of a legitimization strategy for political changes that were already in development before the protest started.

This "but protests must be peaceful!!!" attitude that persists in Western countries and grew in popularity with the '68 generation is actually reproduced by (mostly conservative) politicians these days, as it's easy to simply ignore a peaceful protest.

Just compare worker protection and social security regulations in France (where unions and people literally fight, to wide approval in society and media) vs Germany (where the population is kept docile and any protest that even only looks non-peaceful gets decried in media).

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#165

Post by mytailorisrich » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #161

mytailorisrich wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism is a reaction of Chinese society that predates the CCP. The CCP is a product of it, not the cause. Indeed they know that they have to show achievements in that area because that's what the people want. As a matter of fact that have actually being successful in that regards when the Nationalists had failed. On the world stage the focus is on the CCP and China's political regime because it makes selling ant…

The West and India seem to get along much better than the West and China. Is that simply because India is weaker? Or is it because India and the West are closer in values? India has a pluralist political system; China doesn't. (There are of course some doubts about what direction India is going in given the Modi government, but even given those concerns, India still has far more of a pluralist political system than C…

I'm not sure that the West and India are closer in values than the West and China if you take a comprehensive look. And we could also look at the closeness between India and China vs them and the West. After all, neither of them are Western cultures and they have a long history of interactions.

But this is irrelevant. In general political regimes hardly matter. The US are best friends with some of the most backward and repressive regimes on the planet, and ruthlessly torpedoed democratic regimes.

It's a matter of interests. India is much weaker than China and is not assertive as a global power. It's not a threat. It also shares interests with the West, not least containing China, with fewer competing interests.

I'm sure that India and the Indian understand China and the Chinese when it comes to the struggle of freeing yourself from foreign imperialism and of fighting your corner.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#166

Post by garmaine » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:28 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #127

garmaine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have. At least for the HK residents which predate the '97 handover and therefore have British Overseas National status. This is about 1/3 of the HK population which is now allowed to settle and work in the UK on a track towards permanent residency. If they can get the permission to leave, that is.

It is notable that very few seem to have taken this path. Yet many seem to be protesting, despite it really looking like they have hardly any chance of their protests getting anything they want. There must be more to the story that I'm not seeing...

“ If they can get the permission to leave, that is.”

Also there’s the no-small-matter of how they get to the UK in the middle of a pandemic with restricted flights and transit visas.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#167

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:29 AM UTC

powerapple wrote: post #143

baybal2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China's path changed when Xi installed himself as dictator for life. It's foolish to ignore that seismic shift. It didn't change. It's foolish to not to acknowledge that communists been in power in China all along. Hu, and Wen were just very convenient fronts the party let the West, and its populace see, while it was pulling strings from behind, and bidding time for the comeback in force. The West, its politicians,…

When was Obama's contain China strategy declared? The only thing the West didn't predict to happen is that with the development of living standard, Chinese people become more supportive of their government. It has shown again only sanction works: make people suffer, then they will overthrown your enemy.

In 50 years it's as likely to be China that can sanction the US into submission as the US can sanction China. IMO much more likely. The US (and everyone that follows their contain evil strategy) is shooting themselves in the foot.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#168

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

GordonS wrote: post #157

doesthismean wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also vehemently deny any kind of racism against mainlanders Do racists happily admit that they are racists though?

By this logic, they are vile racists no matter what?!

It's being critical of a source. You look at their actions and words, not at if they deny to be something bad.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#169

Post by Gosper » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:35 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #127

garmaine wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have. At least for the HK residents which predate the '97 handover and therefore have British Overseas National status. This is about 1/3 of the HK population which is now allowed to settle and work in the UK on a track towards permanent residency. If they can get the permission to leave, that is.

It is notable that very few seem to have taken this path. Yet many seem to be protesting, despite it really looking like they have hardly any chance of their protests getting anything they want. There must be more to the story that I'm not seeing...

About as many as can are decamping for less oppressive climes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/27/uk-receives-34...

The professional class in Hong Kong is steadily dwindling with families going where they can or methodically planning to. Canada is most desired, then the UK, and Australia.

It takes time to find employment, a place to live, and schooling for your kids.

But the biggest factor is Covid. Politics aside, Hong Kong has been a great place to ride out the pandemic while the UK handled it abysmally. After the Delta variant and Covid as a whole subsides expect emigration to pick up.

Curiously the job market in Hong Kong is booming and I've seen an uptick in western expats arriving, so there's an appeal if you stay apolitical. Which is easy enough when it's not your home getting wiped out.

Re: HK media erase their archives amid rising arrests

#170

Post by Dah00n » Wed, Jun 30, 2021, 9:39 AM UTC

lifeformed wrote: post #93

limoce wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to see you are being downvoted. I guess some protesters are peaceful, but some are not. Some police are calm but some are violent. Different countries apply different filters in order to get their expected views of Hong Kong.

Obviously you'll get "good" and "bad" behaviors within any large group. It's a bell curve along a continuous value of the whole range between "good" and "bad" (or whatever metric). That doesn't mean dwelling on the outliers is a reasonable counterpoint. What matters is the middle lump of the bell curve - where does that value settle at? HK protesters have generally been peaceful. The HK police response has generally…

It seems to me you are saying the same thing but from different places. Do you have a neutral source that shows that "the middle lump of the bell curve" is "excessively violent" HK police? Because that lump is shown differently in different countries and even in different media.