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Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

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Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#151

Post by jiofih »

100011_100001 wrote: post #128
jiofih wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ask direct & clear then? I also think it sounds disingenuous. This kind of passive-aggression is what “cracking the whip” feels like for employees.

I am trying really hard to resist judging you by your comment, but I will try. Human empathy and emotional intelligence appears to lead to a common pattern in communications. For personal questions, you always want to ask gently and not aggressively. This of course, for a lot of developers appears like an anti-pattern. We like machines, probably because humans are confusing with vague inputs and totally erratic outpu…

Haha. You failed. I can feel the judgement from here. Sounds like the classic preconception of the socially-challenged developer. I thought that meme had died years ago. I promise you I am nothing like that, and not very blunt when communicating either. My role is at least 75% teamwork/management, not development.

As someone else mentioned, there is most likely a cultural divide here. I know you’re not “just checking in”. If you were truly worried about my well being, you would not be mixing that with a progress update. “Let me know how I can help” is also just a backhanded way to tell me something is wrong.

What I would like is a professional conversation (not a blunt one). “Look, X, I’ve noticed you didn’t deliver Y and Z on the agreed timeline yesterday. If you need it we can offload some of the tasks to ABC. As you know we need this live by X because [reasons]. Let’s schedule a call if you’d like to discuss how we can get this back on track. Cheers, Your Manager”

None of the “checking in” bullshit, just honest and direct, but also not offensive or judgmental. A more personal talk can be had f2f or over a call.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#152

Post by ratww »

jiofih wrote: post #151
100011_100001 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am trying really hard to resist judging you by your comment, but I will try. Human empathy and emotional intelligence appears to lead to a common pattern in communications. For personal questions, you always want to ask gently and not aggressively. This of course, for a lot of developers appears like an anti-pattern. We like machines, probably because humans are confusing with vague inputs and totally erratic outpu…

Haha. You failed. I can feel the judgement from here. Sounds like the classic preconception of the socially-challenged developer. I thought that meme had died years ago. I promise you I am nothing like that, and not very blunt when communicating either. My role is at least 75% teamwork/management, not development. As someone else mentioned, there is most likely a cultural divide here. I know you’re not “just checking…

> I know you’re not “just checking in”.

But that's the issue here: this is how a lot of managers "just check in"! Maybe that's not how you would do it, but that's how a lot of us do.

There's no backhanded way of telling something is wrong. "Is there anything I can do to help?" is a legitimate question. I believe that is the crux of the miscommunication here, not the cultural part (I'm also in EU).

I believe you're reading this in a different way others are, which is completely okay, but is leading to lots of misinterpretation. I'd seriously rethink if you're not the one being judgemental here, especially about the "passive aggressive" part.

I also think you're also coming from a compeltely different direction here: you're giving management advice, while what I was trying to give is how to interpret your manager's words.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#153

Post by szundi »

ratww wrote: post #93
jiofih wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ask direct & clear then? I also think it sounds disingenuous. This kind of passive-aggression is what “cracking the whip” feels like for employees.

How do you get more clear? When I say "If there's anything I can help with please let me know." that's what I mean. The misinterpretation is because of overthinking, not because of vagueness. I can reassure the person if they want, but they have to tell me they need reassurance before, or I have to at least detect they're uncomfortable. I'm not gonna go to every employee and say "ok just so you know, I'm not thinking…

Exactly. There are people who just cannot imagine there is genuine good management out there. Habits formed by previous bad experiences perhaps.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#154

Post by ratww »

JohnBooty wrote: post #101
ratww wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you get more clear? When I say "If there's anything I can help with please let me know." that's what I mean. The misinterpretation is because of overthinking, not because of vagueness. I can reassure the person if they want, but they have to tell me they need reassurance before, or I have to at least detect they're uncomfortable. I'm not gonna go to every employee and say "ok just so you know, I'm not thinking…

Please know that even if you've proven yourself to be a talented and compassionate manager over many years, the folks who report to you may have had many more years of managers and companies who did not do a good job of caring for their employees, or may have been outright terrible to them. There's also the reality that, when corresponding with your employer, it's sort of like talking to the police: anything you say…

In my experience, number 1 only makes things worse. For a simple status check, it's better to educate the employees about what "status checks" are rather than let them assume... something I try to do day to day and kind of what I'm trying to do here. If you let them assume, most people IME assume that a video or in-person meeting is more important than slack/quick email. Remember that "is there anything I can help?" is a legitimate question, and that this is not a "management tips" thread, but rather about about an employee (or espouse of one) asking how to deal with managers.

Number 2 is a great good tip indeed, if you want a status report, just wait until the next bi-weekly meeting and it will look even more casual.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#155

Post by coliveira »

giantg2 wrote: post #113
isatty wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true at all. Software engineering is about solving problems. Are you not solving problems with existing libraries?

At my company, we don't really solve problems. The business creates their business system/flow, then we implement it. They handle the strategy, be just obey. We might hit technical problems, but that's not really the same as solving the business problem. Usually it would make sense technically and from a business standpoint to tweak the business system to solve the problem, but that's never an option.

In most companies you still need to understand the business requirements, but only to better implement what was already decided. Management doesn't leave much room for techies to make decisions that impact business.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#156

Post by marcus_holmes »

giantg2 wrote: post #121
marcus_holmes wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that makes them a bad employer. Eventually they're going to hit a wall with this and be forced to change.

Will they though? They have been increasing their use of robotics. Other low skill jobs have too (miso's burger flipper). There are still college kids and low skill people that need jobs. It seems the continual supply with shrinking job positions will enable them to continue doing this.

It'll be interesting to see how the union efforts play out. Historically this has been a major problem for bad employers.

If they automate the whole thing and have robot pickers, that'll be awesome too. About time. I used to work as a picker, and it's not a fun job. Especially the way Amazon runs their warehouses.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#157

Post by adhdsufferer »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #109
adhdsufferer wrote: post #80

> I always lose my job or quit. See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. This is something you can work through. Whatever issue you’re dealing with, there’s people who are very experienced in helping you figure out what it is and how to start dealing with it. For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have som…

Consulting with mental health professionals is a good idea. Assuming an ADHD diagnosis with such little information is not a good idea at all. Please leave the diagnosis to professionals. HN has a growing problem where ADHD is suggested as the root problem on virtually every question from someone struggling with work lately. We really need to stop suggesting this diagnosis for everyone and leave it to the professiona…

I didn't say they did or didn't have anything in particular. Normal people don't get fired, or quit to avoid getting fired, from every job they have. You have some kind of problem if you are experiencing that. It is not necessarily a "disorder," but there is clearly some mismatch between what you want for yourself and what you are able to actually do, a mismatch that is apparently not about lack of innate intelligence but something else. That is exactly the kind of thing a mental health professional is there for.

I said:

>For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have some other different issue.

I stand by that. Someone suggesting that to me is what finally got me help.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#158

Post by adhdsufferer »

DataBrokerLol wrote: post #82
adhdsufferer wrote: post #80

> I always lose my job or quit. See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. This is something you can work through. Whatever issue you’re dealing with, there’s people who are very experienced in helping you figure out what it is and how to start dealing with it. For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have som…

Many people are scared of seeing mental health professionals because we live in the period of history where these sciences are just starting out, so when someone says "I always lose my job or quit", there is an immediate jump towards diagnosing that person with a mental "illness". The problem is that these diagnoses aren't only happening in error and without consequences on HN. I would argue that it is far more produ…

Normal people don't get fired, or quit just in time to avoid getting fired, from every job. If you're smart enough for the job, then there's something else going on that a psychologist or psychiatrist is well-equipped to handle. Like I said, it's not necessarily ADHD. But it is abnormal behavior and if it makes you unhappy or unfulfilled in this life, then you should do something about it. A good place to start is a mental health professional.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#159

Post by adhdsufferer »

sp332 wrote: post #89
adhdsufferer wrote: post #80

> I always lose my job or quit. See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. This is something you can work through. Whatever issue you’re dealing with, there’s people who are very experienced in helping you figure out what it is and how to start dealing with it. For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have som…

I'm not scared of it, but I have no idea how to go about it. Yellow pages?

Like the other commenter said, start with your health insurer's website. Read Google Reviews and such, with a skeptical eye for crazy people leaving bad reviews for dumb reasons, and then check them out. During that first meeting, you're evaluating them as much as they're evaluating you.

Them suggesting medication is not necessarily a red flag. But if it's important to you to try other techniques first, then tell them that. If you don't want to start with the medicine route, consider seeing a psychologist instead of a psychiatrist.

Either way, you want to see someone with a conservative outlook. If they put you on medication, they should start with low doses and be obsessed about whether you are having side-effects. If they're talk therapists, you don't want some Freudian or similar bullshit. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), which is just modern talk therapy that focuses on identifying your dysfunctional thought patterns and fixing them, is probably what you want on that end of things.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#160

Post by simonh »

coliveira wrote: post #38
almost_usual wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Workers are leaving because they don’t want to work anymore. COVID gave everyone more time to reflect on their life.

Isn't this the same thing? Companies want to extract the last drop of life from they employees, and they don't think it makes sense anymore. If companies wanted to keep them, they would just let these employees work less (which is basically the same as paying more per worker).

Companies are just made up of people, so that's a very bitter view of huge swathes of our species. Is human society really just the vicious race to the moral low ground you describe? As a species we have our failings, for sure, but I believe that most people, most of the time and with the freedom to choose try to do the right thing as they see it, and that's as true of people who work for companies as for people who don't.
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