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Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

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Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#121
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that depends highly on the work and company. I think Amazon warehouse or delivery has over 100% annual turnover. Clearly they don't care.

And that makes them a bad employer. Eventually they're going to hit a wall with this and be forced to change.

Will they though?

They have been increasing their use of robotics. Other low skill jobs have too (miso's burger flipper). There are still college kids and low skill people that need jobs. It seems the continual supply with shrinking job positions will enable them to continue doing this.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#123

I'm really glad to see this discussion on Hacker News. I'd like to point out that this is a two sided coin. I manage people and I am having a hard time with one direct report whose performance is not up to the mark. I've raised the problems gently but seems like the message isn't getting across. If anyone has any book suggestions on how to have some of these conversations and improve performance, I'd really appreciat…

Are you communicating goals and expectations clearly?

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#124
post #15

Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! More concerning to me is the "I always lose my job or quit." It sounds a lot like you're running into a pattern in your life which causes you to underperform. If it's emotional or mental, please consider seeking counseling. Brain chemistry can…

I think the idea that work should always be engaging and meaningful is a harmful fallacy that is setting young people up for failure. Even the greatest rock-star or sports celebrity spends the majority of their time doing hard, repetitive or tedious work leading up to their moments of glory. I personally find that when I set my expectations appropriately, and find ways to link the tedious work to a larger goal/milest…

Another riff on this: When people find their jobs interesting, it's almost never because someone else has sent them work they find interesting on a silver platter. The work you're being asked to do is connected to goals, processes, and people in your organization... can you find something in your environment that you have the skills and interest to improve?

A good manager will help you find those opportunities when you feel stuck, but in the end nobody is better suited than you are to find your interests, whether it's within your workplace or the world at large.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#125
post #15

Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! More concerning to me is the "I always lose my job or quit." It sounds a lot like you're running into a pattern in your life which causes you to underperform. If it's emotional or mental, please consider seeking counseling. Brain chemistry can…

I think the idea that work should always be engaging and meaningful is a harmful fallacy that is setting young people up for failure. Even the greatest rock-star or sports celebrity spends the majority of their time doing hard, repetitive or tedious work leading up to their moments of glory. I personally find that when I set my expectations appropriately, and find ways to link the tedious work to a larger goal/milest…

>I think the idea that work should always be engaging and meaningful is a harmful fallacy that is setting young people up for failure.

I agree. I used to think exactly this, until I eventually realized that work should be engaging because I find it engaging, not because it is naturally engaging, and it's up to me to set that attitude.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#126
I don't have "the answer" but I will share my current experience with you.

I have worked for the company I am with for ~5 years, and I usually take a large chunk of time (2-3 weeks) off at the end of the year to recover and reset. Because of the nature of my work I am pretty busy the rest of the year to take more than a few days at a time for any vacation (read: I work while on vacation).

This year my client was particularly pushy and wanted a butt in a seat over the holidays, and because I was the newest on the contract I was selected to be the person who stayed. This bumped my year end reset into the next year (which almost didn't happen at all).

Come the end of May, I realized I was burned out, only by the way of my clients complaining, and not understanding why I couldn't sit down and give a damn about my work.

I realized I had to do something, or else the cycle would continue and I would end up without a job. I reached out to my manager and said what was going on. Told him I am burned out, I need to take a vacation, I need to get right. My manager took this news with grace, told me to tell my client I would be out sick the rest of the week, and to take PTO the following week.

YMMV, but I can tell you that if you are in a good company and they truly value you, you will get the support you need. Many managers are coming around to the idea that people burn out, and that we need time away from keyboards, phones, and having to worry about work, to truly recover.

If your manager isn't receptive to this, that is a good sign you need to take some time, and look for a new position as well. If you can afford the time, take a week or two between jobs (if you end up leaving), to recover and not just head into your new position with the same burn out you are currently experiencing.

I wish you luck, and hope you are able to get the help/rest you need.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#127

> I always lose my job or quit. See a psychologist and/or psychiatrist. This is something you can work through. Whatever issue you’re dealing with, there’s people who are very experienced in helping you figure out what it is and how to start dealing with it. For what it’s worth, you might have ADHD if you’re always quitting or being fired because of an inability to perform to your own abilities. Or you might have som…

Consulting with mental health professionals is a good idea. Assuming an ADHD diagnosis with such little information is not a good idea at all. Please leave the diagnosis to professionals. HN has a growing problem where ADHD is suggested as the root problem on virtually every question from someone struggling with work lately. We really need to stop suggesting this diagnosis for everyone and leave it to the professiona…

adhd and depression can be comorbid as is anxiety

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#128
post #76
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Please don't assume the question is "disingenuous." It's an invitation to talk about what's going on, and bring the manager into the loop. Most managers really do want to help! ^ That's a very important reply. Whenever I send one of those messages like OP quoted, what I really mean is to ask if there's anything I can do to help. A manager is not an old-school "boss" responsible for cracking the whip. Managers exist…

Why not ask direct & clear then? I also think it sounds disingenuous. This kind of passive-aggression is what “cracking the whip” feels like for employees.

I am trying really hard to resist judging you by your comment, but I will try.

Human empathy and emotional intelligence appears to lead to a common pattern in communications. For personal questions, you always want to ask gently and not aggressively.

This of course, for a lot of developers appears like an anti-pattern. We like machines, probably because humans are confusing with vague inputs and totally erratic outputs. However the whole "I say things bluntly" approach will at some point limit the developer. "Hard to work with" becomes a thing. Of course this can be hidden blessing for a dev that likes working on code in isolation and not interact with people. From a management stand point though it's a little flag about that person.

Now the funny thing is some of the same people that like to speak bluntly tend to not like it when others are blunt with them. Regardless, let's try this exercise.

Which one of these two paragraphs sound "better"

a) "Hey X, hope you're doing well. Just wanted to check in and see if you'll still be doing N things from here on out, or if you've been spending more time doing ___. If there's anything I can help with please let me know."

vs

b) "Hey X. You haven't being doing N things, and it doesn't seem like you have been doing more of _____. Get your act together or start looking for a new job."

The interesting thing to me is that your interpretation of (a) is that it's passive-aggression, "cracking the whip". That it's disingenuous...and I guess this is when I am going to start judging you...

What if you are wrong? What if the manager is concerned about the well being of their employee? Why do you feel like it's aggressive? I will like to postulate that the email is actually very well written. The problem with "direct & clear" is that the manager would have to be making assumptions. Maybe they are working on _____ and not N. He might not know, he might have suspicions, but he can't be sure. Also if someone is having problems telling them that they appear sad / depressed / unproductive creates more stress to some people. Ever been upset that you got upset?

In essence the manager is communicating. They are saying please give me an update on what you are working on. They are giving her an out, to say "I am working on ____", so in essence they assume good intentions. They are also asking about N. Have they stopped working on it? Is it a lull? Furthermore they are allowing for the employee to bring up any blockers or issues she is facing. The key point is though, they didn't make any assumptions. They are trying to find out the reality of that employee.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#129

It sounds like the manager may have an intuition that your partner is burned out and is giving them an opening to discuss it. Generally if a person has done good work in the past, and now they aren't, there is a reason for it, and clear communication is the quickest way to surface and resolve the issue. This is somewhat situation dependent - some workplaces are truly toxic. > how can a company expect to retain employ…

Agree with everything but also want to note pulling levers for 30 years is correlated with unionization in those industries. Jobs were protected by unions even if it meant higher costs and lower productivity.

Re: Ask HN: What should I say to my manager when my performance starts suffering?

#130
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ask direct & clear then? I also think it sounds disingenuous. This kind of passive-aggression is what “cracking the whip” feels like for employees.

I am trying really hard to resist judging you by your comment, but I will try. Human empathy and emotional intelligence appears to lead to a common pattern in communications. For personal questions, you always want to ask gently and not aggressively. This of course, for a lot of developers appears like an anti-pattern. We like machines, probably because humans are confusing with vague inputs and totally erratic outpu…

I just want to know what

> if you've been spending more time doing ___.

means, because it seems like the crux of understanding the entire situation.

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