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Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

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Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#231

Post by dekhn »

pitched wrote: post #72
gentleman11 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s clearly about mocking decentralized home made solutions to problems, and of the people who opt for that approach. It’s an insult to every Amish person on earth and to home mechanics who shy away from garages. It’s also, by far, the most downvoted thing I’ve ever posted so thanks for using your other accounts to hit me for my acidic and savagely inappropriate comment

Growing wheat and grinding it out into flour isn’t something I’ve ever heard anyone take on as a hobby before. Having all that actually cost less (including time) than buying bread would be a huge achievement!

I imagine the guy who built his own toaster from scratch probably also contemplating rebuilding the entire pipeline to produce the input to the toast. "Step one: acquire the ore. Step two: smelting iron ore..." http://www.thetoasterproject.org/page2.htm

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#232

Post by sithlord »

myelin wrote: post #40
sparrish wrote: post #8

This is bogus. Wal-mart sells insulin for $24.88 a vial without prescription currently. It's only the newer 'guchi' insulin brands that are crazy expensive. Stuff from 1996 that is compared to in this article is actually cheaper than it was in 1996 (adjusted for inflation).

Type 1 diabetic here. Managing T1D even with the "Gucci" insulins (I use Novolog and have tried Fiasp) is still a huge pain in the butt; you have to give yourself a dose of insulin a fairly precise amount of time before eating, and accurately judge how much you're going to need, which is half science and half wild guesswork. My per-meal dosage requirements vary randomly from month to month -- a dose that would be fin…

Have you looked into the Warsaw Calculation of calculating insulin? I did it for awhile and pretty interesting. Only real issue is its pretty inconvenient, requires breaking up doses more. But it also takes into account for fats and proteins into the insulin calcuation. I dont remember what, but say your carb ration is 1:10, you would calulate a protein as maybe 1:25 and fat as 1:30 (theres some assigned value is the point iirc - dont use these numbers )

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#233

Post by narrator »

Thebroser wrote: post #205
nom wrote: post #173

Can someone explain in layman's terms why there is no competition on this market? As insulin is so cheap to produce, why can't I just get my own product approved and sell it?

There are crazy patents throughout the entirety of the insulin production pipeline. Some of these being extremely absurd such as patenting the pH of a buffer for specific protocols! I volunteer for the Open Insulin Foundation on/off when not too focused on my research project and it's basically how can we come up with a roadmap to making this decentralized insulin without violating any existing patents. An added laye…

Can't you just make Insulin like they made it 20 years ago using expired patents?

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#234

Post by dekhn »

rootusrootus wrote: post #188
margalabargala wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Growing enough viable yeast to bake 10 loaves of bread is orders of magnitude simpler than growing, harvesting, threshing, and milling enough grain to bake 10 loaves of bread.

It can as simple as doing nothing. You can start your own sourdough at home completely from scratch, and do nothing but wait for the yeast to show up.

most times the results will be contaminated by bacteria. The knowledge of what was actually going on when you do this was only gained in the past 250 years or so (before that, yeast was known as godisgreat).

In addition to doing it the way you described (put out flour and water in a bowl and wait for it to bubble and smell nice), you can also buy a $100 microscope, collect wild yeast, clean the bactiera off, and grow mass cultures. Sometimes it pays to work at the last step of the industrial, scientific and agricultural revolutions.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#235

Post by dekhn »

ipsum2 wrote: post #186
gentleman11 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife bakes bread almost every day and grows her own yeast. She loves it and the bread is fantastic. What is so ridiculous?

The parent mentioned growing their own grain, which is substantially more difficult (planting, harvesting, milling) than growing your own yeast.

Let's go back to before real agriculture. 10K years ago People harvested wild grain, processed it, managed to make yeast starter, and produce an edible bread that sustained humanity until we learned how to domesticate it and build the infrastructure to study it until we know how all this works at the molecular level. But they managed to do it without any science or technology.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#236

Post by nathanvanfleet »

f6v wrote: post #17

As someone who had to create transgenic E.coli in a lab, I admire the effort. It’s hard to get it right, especially when trying to make bacteria produce stuff for you. However, it feels like a huge step backward. Imagine you couldn’t afford to buy a piece of bread. Instead, you need to grow your own grains and build a windmill first. Sounds ridiculous in 2021.

Maybe that's the next big local business idea. Like buying from a local bakery every city can have a local guy growing insulin.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#237

Post by RHSeeger »

ska wrote: post #211
RHSeeger wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How cheap is the cheap option About $25, that last I checked. The ones you're talking about, I believe, are the "newer" ones (which are not very new). The prices of those have shot up over the years (in the US) for no good reason. It's shameful.

I guess my mistake was thinking 20 plus years was old enough, that would be out of patent.

My understanding it that they are out of patent, but regulations make it hard for new players to enter the market. Since the number of companies making them are so limited, even the generics cost a lot.

For example, Basaglar is a "generic" of Lantus, but it's still expensive.

Here’s How to Save on Basaglar, the Expensive Lantus “Generic” https://www.goodrx.com/blog/basaglar-expensive-lantus-generi...

> Basaglar contains the same kind of insulin as Lantus (insulin glargine), and while it is cheaper—Basaglar costs about 15% less than Lantus—it is still expensive, with a cash price of around $450 for a 30-day supply.

Unlike normal generics, the bio-similars need to go through their own clinical trials and prove they work the same as the original. They can't just "use the same ingredients" and release it. Mind you, that doesn't explain the extreme price markup, but it does explain why these "generics" don't follow the same "85% cost reduction" of normal generics. They still have, effectively, a costly R&D phase.

At least, that's my understanding.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#238

Post by ineedasername »

nceqs3 wrote: post #78
clarkrinker wrote: post #38

Every time this stuff comes up it feels like we focus on the politics and not the people with diabetes. If you or your kid or your friends have Type 1 and are struggling to make your insulin out of pockets please, please, please call the Eli Lily hotline and get the copay card. They've dropped the monthly cost for Humalog to $35. Don't ration. Work the system. https://www.humalog.com/savings-support

Every drug company gives away their drugs for free to people who can't afford it in the US. It's sad that not enough people take advantage of patient assistance programs.

No, they really don't. Some don't offer much of anything. Many of those end up providing benefits for the poorest of the poor, but if you're a little above that you're out of luck. Also if you have something like Medicare you can hit certain phases in coverage where you have to pay a much larger part of the cost. Being on any government program disqualifies you from most of these discount programs, so if you're on an expensive Rx you can still be stuck paying a few hundred $$ a month-- more than many can afford.

These discount programs aren't some big secret people don't know about. I see that argument thrown out in defense of high prices but it simply isn't true. Every doctor prescribing drugs knows about them and tells their patients about them. If people are going without necessary medication because they don't know about a discount program then they are extreme outliers.

These discount programs are simply marketing & lobbying tools used to give politicians cover when they all continue to ignore meaningful healthcare reform.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#239

Post by bruiseralmighty »

badRNG wrote: post #19
adamrezich wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call your congresscritter. unfortunately not likely to do anything as long as the big pharma lobby remains as powerful as it is

What else is one to do?

About Insulin?

Look for ways to make the patents unenforceable. If diabetics had the ability to make their own safe insulin at home that would be best. Then all they would need is an internet connection and some basic components. The closer we get to that ideal the more empowered they are.

This would actually solve a lot of price gouging for drugs.

However that's only a stop gap measure. What's happening with gating access to insulin is happening to a thousand other products in a thousand other industries right now. Start looking at alternative governance structures. Lord knows everyones got a blog and a half-assed plan to run things better at this point (since the bar is so low).

Just don't poke the bear. As cathartic as hanging 'congresscritters' would be it wont actually solve the problem.

Basically act like you don't expect anyone else to fix this problem for you because nobody is going to; especially if you voted for them.

Re: Biohackers take aim at big pharma’s stranglehold on insulin

#240

Post by lotsofpulp »

sithlord wrote: post #194
lotsofpulp wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot renew a patent in the US. They get a new product patented, but anyone is still free to come along and make the older one. However, I bet there is a ton of expertise and cost required with doing that, and that is what is stopping others.

they "renew" by "improving" their existing product enough to make it obsolete, and to get a new patent. Per the article below this has been happening since 1923 https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/media/releases/why_peop...

That is better described as a new patent. The product for the patent that expired is expired, and can be made by others.
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