Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2 • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#191

Post by jodrellblank » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #171

jodrellblank wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never used Telegram, but I suspect the Teams integration with SharePoint/Office365 and the (terrible) way Teams tries to be cake icing and floor wax by integrating file store, wiki, document library, telephone, whiteboard, plugin app ecosystem and webhook scripting environment with Windows ACLs makes it more complex than an independent chat/call/video call program?

Perhaps a bit? But as others wrote, they have 50 people. How many does Microsoft have (and of course, Google, Facebook are also bad at it)

Microsoft has 160,000.

Don't get me wrong, I loathe Teams and its laggish bullshit nature as much as the rest of the pitchfork wielding people in this thread, it's just that it's not apples-to-apples comparison with a pure chat/call client and the headcount needed to develop it because of how much extra junk is hiding in Teams.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#192

Post by anoncake » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

eloff wrote: post #163

rado wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can an organisation start a Web/Desktop project which can never ever be _good_ (not to mention great) and frustrate and annoy its customers all the time? If native is a mess, how is outsourcing the mess to the user justified?

What's the alternative? Be only on one platform? Not viable today. Implement 5 different apps, usually not viable. The platforms are fragmented and the user pays the costs of that in the end, one way or another. If you hide it by increasing development costs, the price of the app ( or amount of ads or premium only features) must go up to compensate and the user pays the cost as well. Edit: downvote all you like, ther…

Microsoft easily has the resources to write 5 chat app UIs.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#193

Post by mynameismon » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

hakube wrote: post #152

beebeepka wrote: post #38

As if Electron is the actual problem hay. I am forced to have this junk running on my work PC at all times. As far as I know, everyone hates it. I only know a couple of people who like it and I definitely don't value their input since we disagree on pretty much everything I know Discord is supposed to be for gamers but I've only used it for work and it's hands down the best thing out there

We're using Discord at work and dumped Skype and Teams. It's been a blast

You might want to check Guilded (https://guilded.gg). Has most features of Discord, along with calendar and wiki channels.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#194

Post by zerop » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

Going by comments here, I think most people find the Teams awful, then why are companies moving from Slack to MS Teams. Is the cost the main factor?

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#195

Post by wila » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

billti wrote: post #168

The article says Electron is a memory hog because it is based on Chromium, but so is WebView2! As it is based on the new Chromium version of Edge. It’s still not clear how the switch results in half the memory use then (though I’m happy to see it!)

It's because they control the whole stack.

FWIW, I'm currently finishing up an ActiveX wrapper for WebView2 so that it can be consumed in a way similar to the old IE WebBrowser control and so far I'm pretty impressed.

To give you a basic idea. I'm running the control embedded and the WebView2 control consumes about 60MB after navigating to my own -mostly text- website. Browsing within that control to the page of the hacker news topic makes the RAM usage go up to 130MB. Navigating back to this hacker news comment page and the memory usage drops down to about 75MB.

So yes, I'm impressed by how well it works.

edit: Another huge advantage. Last week I upgraded MS Edge and WebView2 is also upgraded. So the control is kept up to date and not depending on an external dependency that might end up being a security nightmare.

The control itself continues to work fine.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#196

Post by anoncake » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

failwhaleshark wrote: post #113

Native apps or die. I won't use anything based on Atom or Electron. The reason is that these "cross-platform" applications on top of web browsers are basically complete operating systems emulated on top of the underlying OS. It's worse than turtles all the way down; they're sea urchins: fragile, prickly, and lethargic. And these memory-hogging leviathans multiply faster than rabbits so developers don't have to get th…

No one uses Teams voluntarily anyway.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#197

Post by kaba0 » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

mmis1000 wrote: post #190

kaba0 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you are talking about making a goddamn text editor faster — it’s just ridiculous. There should be no lag whatsoever when it comes to UIs in 2021.

Building a text editor across platform with exact the same behavior is somewhat a thing that you almost always to redo "everything" in different platforms. It isn't very unseasonable to just relies on something that already do most hard works for you. If you must use some "native" alternative. It is probably something like GTK/QT. But I doubt do they actually have the ability to do such complex edit behavior and layo…

> It is probably something like GTK/QT. But I doubt do they actually have the ability to do such complex edit behavior and layouts.

They actually can - QtCreator for example. Also, I really don't think that the web would be the panacea of UIs, on the contrary.

But I otherwise agree with you - text editors are surprisingly hard. But I still don't really get the why for teams. It could even just add a webview for the actual meeting part, but let the rest be something actually workable.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#198

Post by Krasnol » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:33 PM UTC

zerop wrote: post #194

Going by comments here, I think most people find the Teams awful, then why are companies moving from Slack to MS Teams. Is the cost the main factor?

From my personal experience people are moving from nothing to Teams.

Welcome to Germany.

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#199

Post by andybak » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

kaba0 wrote: post #161

52-6F-62 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do actually use it all the time. We share some slack channels with external partners but email is the main mode for some others and I have to send code, interfaces, etc on occasion and copy pasting from VS Code maintains the formatting in Apple mail which I’ve found useful. No hitting the space at a hundred times to indent a nested line. And it’s easy enough to escape. But that behaviour everywhere would drive me n…

I think they mean formatting as in slightly different font, color, background or goddamn underline and the like. I have never found it useful, and would be much much better with a non-default right click past as formatted option. Your use case will not suffer since whitespace is text.

Formatting can hugely change the way text is read. It's quite common for the spacing between sections to be derived from the formatting. So removing the formatting can result in section headings with zero space from the preceeding paragraph but a manual newline between it and the next paragraph. Thus the headings essentially disappear into the preceeding text.

I've had countless other examples over the years where "paste without formatting" involved lots of manual editing of white space. Bullet and numbered lists sometimes vanish which rather matters if the text says "see point 3 above"

Re: Microsoft Teams 2 will use half the memory, dropping Electron for Edge Webview2

#200

Post by bluefirebrand » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

bloopernova wrote: post #60

xyst wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. Also how can they forget an option to “paste without formatting”? Copying stuff from other sources is extremely painful. At this point, I leave it as is. I don’t have time to micromanage each copy and paste. Also teams has this arbitrary message character limit that makes it terrible for sharing large chunks of text (partial logs for example). While the integrations with outlook (mail/scheduling) +…

I have to use the Mac plain paste shortcut all the time: shift+option+command+v (Ctrl+shift+v in windows, not sure about Linux) Definitely a helpful shortcut!

Mac Shortcuts are a nightmare, jeez.