Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#611

Post by taurath » Thu, Jun 24, 2021, 10:19 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #592

taurath wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OTOH very little of how our society bases its treatment of trans people based on science or medical prognosis. The best evidence there is is that dysphoria is real and gender affirming therapies including medical transition is an effective treatment. Yet access to that treatment varies extremely widely, being treated inherently as a second or third class citizen both by culture and in a lot of cases by law. I do unde…

Per your last point, the response can swing the other way and also cause harm in some cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

Yes, and detransitioners happen and should be (and are as far as I've experienced) supported. But their argument a bit like if I said that all elective surgery should be illegal because I regret mine. For every story like this you can find a thousand who are waiting years to get any amount of treatment. The UK is well known for having some of the most stringent policies and heavy usage of gatekeeping before anyone gets treatment - FAR more than in the US.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#612

Post by alentist » Fri, Jun 25, 2021, 12:22 AM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #601

alentist wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female. Replace gender with race. Do you feel the same way about race?

Well, I didn't know that race is determined by your chromosomes. TIL I guess. And I don't see how someone would identify as black if they aren't, it's a melatin level in the skin. The issues about race have less to do with the issues about transgender people, and more with their struggles faced by fault of modern society, in addition to the struggles one would face as transgender and/or female, which can intersect qu…

> Well, I didn't know that race is determined by your chromosomes. TIL I guess.

Is that sarcasm? Do you know what chromosomes are?

> And I don't see how someone would identify as black if they aren't

By simply claiming they do. Is that not the criterion you're using for gender?

"I don't see how someone would identify as female if they aren't."

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#613

Post by mk81 » Fri, Jun 25, 2021, 5:52 AM UTC

C19is20 wrote: post #423

mk81 wrote: post #410

Couldn't even get past the equivocating this poor woman felt she had to do before saying what we all know: this is bullshit.

Clarity required: bullshit she should compete as a female, or bullshit she shouldn't?

The former.

Can't help but note the power of twisting the language. It's bullshit that he should compete as a woman but of course now I'm the asshole.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#614

Post by memling » Fri, Jun 25, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

realityking wrote: post #608

memling wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people. Take Hanne Gaby Odiele ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanne_Gaby_Odiele ). They (their preferred pronoun) have an XY chromosome but due to an androgen insensitivity looks traditionally female - to the point of being a fairly successful model for woman's fashion. They'd certainly be very out of…

> Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people.

This is another assertion that I also don't quite understand. (I want to emphasize I'm not trolling here—I'm genuinely interested. Topics like this are obviously highly charged and challenging to discuss in a fruitful way.)

Vocabulary exists for discussing intersex characteristics, so the existence of intersex people is known and acknowledged. Is there something special about pronouns?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#615

Post by memling » Fri, Jun 25, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

nandhinianand wrote: post #394

memling wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

1. is pretty close for ex: most brain functions can be called subjective, and therefore not that relevant. 2. is relatively a trend in how civilization has been moving. The cavemen bashed a skull that seemed unfamiliar or they didn't like, we don't we try to setup a legal system and judge a sense of justice. I don't think every subjective experience should be allowed to be used over other person's choices. I guess we…

> 1. is pretty close for ex: most brain functions can be called subjective, and therefore not that relevant.

Sorry for the delay. HN is not a great forum for long discussions (on purpose, I guess). I've been noodling on this for awhile, and so maybe just blathering into the ether.

I'm not sure that subjective and irrelevant necessarily go together.

I guess the argument I'm thinking of is more this: my pronoun preference is biological, so if my chromosomes disagree with my pronoun preference why should my chromosomes govern communication protocols instead of the rest of my biology?

If these things are truly irrelevant, then the notion of gender identity is itself irrelevant and so, too, are pronouns, aren't they? (I mean, maybe not, but I don't see how one could say chromosomes don't matter but preferences do.)

One of the real challenges gender identity raises is that it acknowledges that the body actually means something. It also implies that language means something. Mind and body go together, and when they disagree some kind of resolution is needed. Language shapes reality, so when language contradicts that resolution the reality of my existence, my very identity, is threatened or negated.

If we stipulate that, I think we have to admit pronoun use really isn't neutral. It's not merely a matter of common decency and respect (although it certainly is part of that), but about what we think it means to be human and how we attempt to shape and react to reality.

My own thoughts here aren't super well formed, hence my line of questioning and (perhaps poorly worded and thought out) reasoning...but I do think it bears some critical examination.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#616

Post by realityking » Fri, Jun 25, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

memling wrote: post #614

realityking wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people. Take Hanne Gaby Odiele ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanne_Gaby_Odiele ). They (their preferred pronoun) have an XY chromosome but due to an androgen insensitivity looks traditionally female - to the point of being a fairly successful model for woman's fashion. They'd certainly be very out of…

> Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people. This is another assertion that I also don't quite understand. (I want to emphasize I'm not trolling here—I'm genuinely interested. Topics like this are obviously highly charged and challenging to discuss in a fruitful way.) Vocabulary exists for discussing intersex characteristics, so the exis…

How would you address an intersex person? Their physical characteristics might have been decided by a doctor shortly after birth without any input from themselves. Their chromosomes might be ambiguous or just don’t match their physical characteristics. Like Hanne Gaby Odiele having an XY chromosome, looking (to me) physically female and preferring the they/them pronoun.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#617

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #508

buran77 wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's supposed to say that she's exhibiting typical male level performance, which happens to be substantially above typical female performance at that level. This means she's taking full advantage of a body which developed and trained as male for 35 years to get ahead of women who have to rely "only" on training. You wouldn't let an adult compete in a junior competition because they feel young at heart. You wouldn't l…

Equally, you wouldn't ban a child from a junior competition just because they were able to achieve an adult's performance out of "fairness" to the other children. Hubbard may have a physical advantage over cis women - but lots of athletes have physical advantages over each other. What is different about the kind of advantage you might obtain by being trans? Also, comparing a trans woman to someone who "feels young at…

> Also, comparing a trans woman to someone who "feels young at heart" is a false equivalence,

How, exactly?

> and an offensive one.

Proof?

> One is an identity, the other is not.

And then we're back to the very first comment, "sex not gender": Sports are categorised into male and female by biology, not identity.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#618

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

ivanbakel wrote: post #505

t_sawyer wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except... gymnastics won't end up being dominated by a bunch of people like Simone Biles. Female sports will continue to be dominated by biological males if we continue to let this happen.

So? What would be the downside of trans women dominating womens' sports, if that were even the eventuality?

> So? What would be the downside of trans women dominating womens' sports, if that were even the eventuality?

That non-trans women have no fucking chance of being champions in pretty much any sports at all anymore, obviously. You're bending over backwards to be "fair" to a tiny minority, and not giving a shit that in order to do that you're being as utterly unfair as one could possibly be to half of humanity. The much eaasier solution, if you want people born as males to hold all the records, is to just simply abolish womens' sports altogether.

Honestly, this question is so horrendously disingenious that I'm shocked you even had the gall to ask it.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#619

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #576

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, are you saying the graph is inaccurate?

I'm assuming it is accurate, it is still misleading. It makes it look like she should be breaking records and crushing the competition, when in truth she is doing neither.

How many women over 40 regularly beat Hubbard?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#620

Post by CRConrad » Sat, Jun 26, 2021, 11:13 PM UTC

realityking wrote: post #616

memling wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people. This is another assertion that I also don't quite understand. (I want to emphasize I'm not trolling here—I'm genuinely interested. Topics like this are obviously highly charged and challenging to discuss in a fruitful way.) Vocabulary exists for discussing intersex characteristics, so the exis…

How would you address an intersex person? Their physical characteristics might have been decided by a doctor shortly after birth without any input from themselves. Their chromosomes might be ambiguous or just don’t match their physical characteristics. Like Hanne Gaby Odiele having an XY chromosome, looking (to me) physically female and preferring the they/them pronoun.

> How would you address an intersex person?

"You."

HTH!