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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

insidethegames.biz

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#491

Post by zaarn »

alisonkisk wrote: post #489
zaarn wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not find a set of rules that works for 100% of people instead of leaving out the 1% for no other reason than "we have to continue with the rules we established as tradition".

Because there are no such rules. It's a competition. Only a few people can win, and any rules are biased. If you rolled back the clock and tried again, Michael Phelps would never be a champion weightlifter, and the best weightlifter would never be a champion swimmer.

There are in fact rules.

Currently for olympic distance running at 400 meters or further, a female must present with a certain maximum level of testosterone. This rule was specifically made to exclude an intersex female-presenting runner who excelled. Due to medical complications, she cannot take medication to surpress her testosterone levels on a long term basis.

So yes, such rules exist.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#492

Post by ffggvv »

ben_w wrote: post #251
ffggvv wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.

yeah but even then it doesn’t change your chromosomes

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#493

Post by IgorPartola »

slipframe wrote: post #472
nandhinianand wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I have the right to insist they supress these beliefs, as long as they're not trying to harm me with them. The argument from the trans community would be that misgendering and encouraging other employees to misgender them(which will happen if the belief is propaganda-ised) will cause significant emotional harm, risk mental health, cause problems in fulfilling job etc.. I'm not sure about how true this…

Incidentally, threatening suicide to get what you want is a form of emotional abuse.

Good thing nobody does that, isn’t it?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#494

Post by ladyattis »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #485
ladyattis wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact, to get the benefits of secondary sex characteristics for trans women they often have to have LOWER testosterone and higher estrogen levels for cis women in their weight and age. This is done to overcome the masculinization they've gone through. Basically, to…

I think using instantaneous testosterone is probably not the right call. Probably a metric like aggregate exposure to testosterone/other androgens over the course of one's life. It would need to be one signal among many -- for example, cis-men should not compete in women's sport regardless of whether they have very low testosterone. But it seems like a signal like this may be needed at some point. Of course it is pos…

Even aggregate exposure isn't going to be a good metric. You don't keep the muscle mass for long. In fact, one of the big issues that trans women deal with is osteoporosis. I've personally known some trans women who've had to actively had to use supplements to prevent fractures and the like. No amount of exercise will be enough to build up density. The reality is that trans folks are probably on the bottom rung in the majority of cases in physical performance. Those that endure this and even get sports rarely rise above the average.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#495

Post by buran77 »

dagw wrote: post #405
buran77 wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's hard to draw a precise line, there's a clear difference between having some genetic features that give you an advantage, and having most genetic features that give you an advantage. Growing up under the influence of male genetics and hormones gives an individual a massive advantage in such a sport, that simply cannot be compensated for or against with just training or medical solutions. There's nothing tha…

The evidence is in the performance which falls squarely in line with male performance The article seems to make clear that while she is in the top 10, she's not in the top 3 and is in no way a favorite to win. So I'm not sure what that graph is supposed to be showing. Two women in this weight class have scored a 300+ in competition while Hubbard's best is a 285 from 2019.

It's supposed to say that she's exhibiting typical male level performance, which happens to be substantially above typical female performance at that level. This means she's taking full advantage of a body which developed and trained as male for 35 years to get ahead of women who have to rely "only" on training.

You wouldn't let an adult compete in a junior competition because they feel young at heart. You wouldn't let someone compete while on performance enhancing drugs just because they needed them. You would ban athletes who who are repeatedly caught using steroids because it's well known they provide an unfair advantage even years later. And that absolutely pales in comparison to having a trained male body in a women's weightlifting competition.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#496

Post by slipframe »

IgorPartola wrote: post #493
slipframe wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incidentally, threatening suicide to get what you want is a form of emotional abuse.

Good thing nobody does that, isn’t it?

I have been on the receiving end of it.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#497

Post by IgorPartola »

maybeOneDay wrote: post #319
fxtentacle wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just seems weird to me. Most people want to have kids later in life. Of course trans women are different wrt that life goal.

Your argument is somewhat tangential - are you arguing women are defined by their ability to give birth? Seems fairly obvious that doesn't hold up even when we aren't talking about trans people

It doesn’t hold up if you talk about cis women either. I know plenty who cannot have children. Menopause also then would make women not-women, right?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#498

Post by IgorPartola »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #485
ladyattis wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact, to get the benefits of secondary sex characteristics for trans women they often have to have LOWER testosterone and higher estrogen levels for cis women in their weight and age. This is done to overcome the masculinization they've gone through. Basically, to…

I think using instantaneous testosterone is probably not the right call. Probably a metric like aggregate exposure to testosterone/other androgens over the course of one's life. It would need to be one signal among many -- for example, cis-men should not compete in women's sport regardless of whether they have very low testosterone. But it seems like a signal like this may be needed at some point. Of course it is pos…

So as an average (non-athletic) male, my testosterone is likely lower than that of Phelps. If we were the same height and weight, would my entry into the competition disqualify him for having too much testosterone?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#499

Post by bagacrap »

alisonkisk wrote: post #486
esja wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no idea just how massive the biological advantage is. Movies and popular culture have conditioned people to think that females can hold their own against men. Individuals can, in some contexts, where the statistical distribution overlaps. For example a mediocre middle aged man can be beaten in strength or speed sports by an athletic 20-something woman. But at the tails of the distribution, where the…

Why should women's championships even exist? Isn't that just a pity prize? Either design a game where women tend to perform better (like certain forms of gymnastics) or where they tend to be more interested due to the cultural aspects (like cheer/dance), or let women compete in other areas of endeavor. Why have leagues for women in basketball but not "men under 6ft tall"? Is it to encourage girls and women to be phys…

This post is generally ridiculous, but I will point out that we do have weight categories for boxing. I suppose we don't have height categories for basketball because no one wants to watch that.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#500

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

ladyattis wrote: post #494
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think using instantaneous testosterone is probably not the right call. Probably a metric like aggregate exposure to testosterone/other androgens over the course of one's life. It would need to be one signal among many -- for example, cis-men should not compete in women's sport regardless of whether they have very low testosterone. But it seems like a signal like this may be needed at some point. Of course it is pos…

Even aggregate exposure isn't going to be a good metric. You don't keep the muscle mass for long. In fact, one of the big issues that trans women deal with is osteoporosis. I've personally known some trans women who've had to actively had to use supplements to prevent fractures and the like. No amount of exercise will be enough to build up density. The reality is that trans folks are probably on the bottom rung in th…

> You don't keep the muscle mass for long.

That is not what the research I have seen shows. And the incident being discussed in the story we are commenting on seems to put the lie to this notion.

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