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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#601

Post by zaarn »

alentist wrote: post #599
zaarn wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with race?

> I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female. Replace gender with race. Do you feel the same way about race?

Well, I didn't know that race is determined by your chromosomes. TIL I guess. And I don't see how someone would identify as black if they aren't, it's a melatin level in the skin.

The issues about race have less to do with the issues about transgender people, and more with their struggles faced by fault of modern society, in addition to the struggles one would face as transgender and/or female, which can intersect quite badly.

I'm honestly astounded that HN apparently doesn't have any idea about intersectional discourse in the slightest, should be pretty obvious stuff.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#602

Post by robertlagrant »

ryanwinchester wrote: post #537
robertlagrant wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's actually a campaign in wheelchair tennis to allow players who don't actually need a wheelchair to be allowed to compete I've wondered about this - it's an interesting idea. Then the sport is just "Wheelchair tennis" and anyone can try.

I think people not confined to a wheelchair have more options for physical training. You could say that's an unfair advantage to people actually requiring the chair.

True, and also it's possible that they would be able to get leverage from their legs in a way that not everyone could. It's a tricky topic.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#603

Post by kuschku »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #412
kuschku wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The olympic requirements are already having completely female hormone levels for 2 years. In fact, the limit for testosterone is significantly lower than for cis women, being a significant disadvantage for trans athletes, which is why in all the decades trans athletes have been allowed, you haven't seen any. Cis women with higher levels of testosterone, e.g. caster semenya, are already dominating the olympics, having…

Not sure where you’re getting your information. The weightlifting rules allows trans athletes to have testosterone levels of 10nmol/L. Some sports are 5nmol/L. Normal range for men is 9-31nmol/L Women range from 0.9-2.5nmol/L Even these guys (link below) who argue that the limits are arbitrary then go on to point to study in which 11 of 234 female athletes had T levels of 8nmol/L and 32 had 2.6nmol/L. 74 of 446 male…

With normal HRT, you're usually reaching T levels around 0.5nmol/L (mine are 0.53 at the moment).

So pretty much every genuinely trans athlete will have a disadvantage compared to cis female athletes.

In fact, even pre transition, my levels were lower than those of 11 of 234 cis female athletes, so I never got any of the "benefits" testosterone supposedly has.

None of your statistics are an argument for banning or restricting trans athletes.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#604

Post by robertlagrant »

pja wrote: post #532
robertlagrant wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's relevant; the case was a Tweet, was it not?

I think it was significantly more than just a single Tweet. You’d have to go back to the original judgement (some of which is quoted in the judement I linked to) to see.

Fair enough!

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#605

Post by cko »

void_mint wrote: post #556
ajuc wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very simplistic understanding of statistics. Basketball success doesn't need to be correlated linearly with height for it to be the single most important factor. In fact it's pretty obvious there would be a tipping point because extreme height is inversely correlated with health and mobility. In similar fashion weight matters more than skill in boxing that's why we have weight categories. 120 kg boxer will…

If your argument is "Height of a random person decides whether they could be an NBA player", that statement is incorrect. If your argument is "Height of an NBA player is the most significant factor in determining their success", that statement is also incorrect. > In similar fashion weight matters more than skill in boxing that's why we have weight categories A 220 lb boxer is more capable of knocking out a 140 lb bo…

I have to weigh in on this.

Based on my observations, on offense (and in a team situation), skill trumps height.

On defense, there's no way a much shorter player can reliably guard a taller player. And definitely not one on one. I've watched many one on one clips and thought 'wow size is everything.'

Sure, Steph Curry is probably the most skilled player in the league. But do you think a team with five Steph Currys can beat a team with, say, five Paul Georges? I'm not so sure.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#606

Post by llimos »

ivanbakel wrote: post #517
llimos wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downside is that the whole point of having women's sports was to give women a chance to win, which they would usually be unable to. What you are suggesting will again put biological women in the position where they cannot win. So you have defeated the whole purpose.

>What you are suggesting will again put biological women in the position where they cannot win. We should remember that most cis women cannot compete at an Olympic level anyways. That's the point I'm trying to make in this thread - physical outliers are already responsible for lots of non-competitions at the top level of many sports. Every athlete with a physical advantage precludes some other athlete from the top of…

> the "point" of womens' leagues is just to provide a space for women to compete, and trans women should be allowed in those spaces.

This is patently false. In sports such as archery (which is an Olympic sport), where strength does not provide an advantage, men and women do compete together. So it's clearly not about providing a "space" for women to compete.

And in weightlifting, the subject at hand, all competitors are on their own, they might never be in the same room as each other. So again, what is this "space for women to compete"? It's clearly about the physical advantages of the sex, and I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#607

Post by anoncake »

textgel wrote: post #282
kristopolous wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a big one with people who insist that I must call them in a particular way. It clashes with the idea that freedom of one person stops where freedom of another person starts So this would also apply to say, racial slurs and personal insults. Calling someone a name or the n-word instead of their name, that's a freedom? What about antisemitic slurs or insulting disabled people? How about just referring to women…

You don't have the right not to be offended. No matter how many times you ask.

You have a right not to be intentionally offended. Because that is an attack.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#608

Post by realityking »

memling wrote: post #371
maybeOneDay wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

Adding a third option, proposing sex being the superior categorisation completely ignores the existence of intersex people.

Take Hanne Gaby Odiele (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanne_Gaby_Odiele). They (their preferred pronoun) have an XY chromosome but due to an androgen insensitivity looks traditionally female - to the point of being a fairly successful model for woman's fashion. They'd certainly be very out of place in a mens bathroom if forced there due to their chromosome.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#609

Post by void_mint »

cko wrote: post #605
void_mint wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your argument is "Height of a random person decides whether they could be an NBA player", that statement is incorrect. If your argument is "Height of an NBA player is the most significant factor in determining their success", that statement is also incorrect. > In similar fashion weight matters more than skill in boxing that's why we have weight categories A 220 lb boxer is more capable of knocking out a 140 lb bo…

I have to weigh in on this. Based on my observations, on offense (and in a team situation), skill trumps height. On defense, there's no way a much shorter player can reliably guard a taller player. And definitely not one on one. I've watched many one on one clips and thought 'wow size is everything.' Sure, Steph Curry is probably the most skilled player in the league. But do you think a team with five Steph Currys ca…

One on One is again not really a worthwhile topic given that's not how basketball is played at high levels.

> there's no way a much shorter player can reliably guard a taller player.

Just flatout false. Clint Capela isn't the tallest center in the NBA but is an absolutely dominant defensive player. It's not about guarding all five players on the other team, it's about winning your matchup and providing help. In both scenarios, height isn't the most important thing at all. Jrue Holiday is also an elite defender but isn't very tall at all.

Height is a red herring; sometimes height can be used as a proxy in place of skill. The thing about elite levels of play, is that the skill level is so high that you can't really get away with lacking skill.

> Sure, Steph Curry is probably the most skilled player in the league. But do you think a team with five Steph Currys can beat a team with, say, five Paul Georges? I'm not so sure.

Steph's ability to set picks and create mismatches isn't nearly as good as his ability to use picks and exploit mismatches. Steph's playstyle is enabled by a totally different archetype of player. PG is a more "complete" offensive and defensive player.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#610

Post by orestarod »

ivanbakel wrote: post #505
t_sawyer wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except... gymnastics won't end up being dominated by a bunch of people like Simone Biles. Female sports will continue to be dominated by biological males if we continue to let this happen.

So? What would be the downside of trans women dominating womens' sports, if that were even the eventuality?

Does one have to undergo surgery and hormonal therapy to be a trans woman?

Can one change their mind about whether they are a man or a woman whenever they want?

Which is the third party who should have the right to judge if you are a man or a woman?

Can a male self identify as a female when they wish and enter a women competition?

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