Live data from Hacker News

Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

insidethegames.biz

591–600 of 643 posts

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#591
post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? Women who take performance enhancing drugs are also disqualified from competing. No one is challenging their identity as a woman, just the fairness of their competing against women without that advantage. It is not a moral prohibition against consumin…

Vanbellinghen is not saying Hubbard used steroids. Physical differences or biological advantages between competitors aren't ever considered reasons to exclude a competitor. People who are gifted with strong and healthy bodies can become world class competitors with enough training and dedication. A swimmer isn't disqualified for being unusually tall, a sprinter unusually lean, a gymnast petite, etc. Imagine a woman b…

It feels like you are deliberately trying to conflate issues that don't need to be conflated.

Not even taking transgenderism into account, I think it is a very difficult problem of how to handle people have been born with intersex characteristics in sports. On the one hand, the argument can be made "how is this different than other natural variation that makes someone good at sports", but on the other hand, since testosterone has such a powerful effect, it means that women sports can only be won by those with a genetic abnormality that causes high testosterone (a couple of years ago all three of the top finishers at an international track and field competition were intersex - I'm blanking on the competition but Caster Semenya was one of them).

No one needs to deny their identity as woman to also question whether, in one example, internal testes gives someone an unfair advantage in women's sports.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#592
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pro-trans movement as an "ideology" had read to me as a dismissal of the pro-trans movement at large This is the problem. There's no difference to people. Arguing any nuanced part of the conversation is often met with exaggerated reactions of "you're anti-trans" or "you're dismissing transexualism as a whole", which is not the case. So yes, the pro-trans movement on many online spaces is very ideological - they eve…

OTOH very little of how our society bases its treatment of trans people based on science or medical prognosis. The best evidence there is is that dysphoria is real and gender affirming therapies including medical transition is an effective treatment. Yet access to that treatment varies extremely widely, being treated inherently as a second or third class citizen both by culture and in a lot of cases by law. I do unde…

Per your last point, the response can swing the other way and also cause harm in some cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#593
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This what-about mentality that fragments the population into increasingly small groups while expecting everyone else to adhere needs a course correction.

I don't want to fragment, I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female.

Do you feel the same way about race?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#594
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to fragment, I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female.

Do you feel the same way about race?

What does this have to do with race?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is definitely the counter argument I would use - if people have preferred pronouns then what is the ethical argument for ignoring those and using words that would cause them harm So I think a natural conservative argument there would be that the primary reason why we have sex-based (not gender-based!) pronouns in the first place is so that we can talk about biological categories that are important for the continuat…

That logic would also state that we should no longer call a man a man if he becomes infertile through choice (or otherwise), no? > Messing about with mechanisms that are crucial to our survival should at least not be done lightly. I disagree with this. Unsurprisingly so, given that I am non-conservative. I believe in personal choice over reproduction and I believe that this choice simply is more important than any ti…

> That logic would also state that we should no longer call a man a man if he becomes infertile through choice (or otherwise), no?

I don't think that's necessarily the case. The argument is less about individual cases and more about keeping the overall categories intact as traditionally perceived, which isn't really endangered in that case.

By the same argument, calling transmen men if they are passing perfectly would probably be fine. And that's likely what's been happening forever anyway, and is the point of "passing": those individuals don't threaten the general categories. It's a kind of "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

[...]

> > the lack of acknowledgment by trans activists that that's what they're doing

> I think that's because it's largely incidental

Is it? What you write about personal choice is all(?) true and does not contradict the argument.

My impression is that while transphobia is definitely a thing, a lot of the backlash against trans activism isn't about trans people's individual rights and choices but about trans activists wanting to impose certain beliefs that they have on others. For example, for the purpose of this discussion, the belief that the categories of "man" and "woman" must be defined differently than many (most?) people intuitively define them based on some of the most deeply rooted perception and pattern recognition of the brain.

So it may feel incidental to trans activists, but the people who react likely don't feel the same because it's the aspect (or one of the aspects) of trans activism that affects them the most personally.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#596
post #561
post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to fragment, I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female.

I fully believe trans women are women, but I'm genuinely curious as to what the feminist response to stuff like these competitions should be when it's clear that trans women have a distinct and irrerperable advantage over biological women. What potential problems would there be from having a biological women competition, and a trans women competition? Genuinely curious as to your answer and I am asking this in good f…

And what is the response that people who undergo female hormone treatments will have a distinct disadvantage over men who've not done that? Should they have to continue in a field they have this disadvantage in?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#597

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

we are going to continue to see huge increases in openly transgender people competing in sport We're discussing literally the first trans woman to compete at the Olympics. Obviously going from 0 to 1 is a huge increase in percentage terms, but there's no evidence that it's going to continue to the point where women's sports are 'destabilised'.

Olympics is like the end stage. Transgender people competing in sport has been a common thing for past 3-4 years now. I personally know 3 girls who lost their sports scholarships to multiple transgender competing and taking all the top spots.

A girl who's case is heading up to U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit wrote a post on USAToday a month ago before USAToday edited her post without her permission and made changes to it:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2021/05/22/transgende...

She did an interview last week:

https://youtu.be/5HYL9pJGs8w

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#598
Political correctness has caused women rights to go backwards over half a century. Nobody had the spine so far to stand up for obvious women rights and unfair treatment to the point where Olympics - one of the highest sports organizations has become a complete joke with allowing this to happen. This will only stop when women and girls simply boycott all these events.

And this isn't just happening in Sports, even women beauty pageants are now being won by transgender.

"What a great message for young girls... No matter what you do, men will always be better than you at it- including being a woman!"

Absolutely absurd.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#599
post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about race?

What does this have to do with race?

> I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female.

Replace gender with race. Do you feel the same way about race?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech > Freedom of speech[2] is a fundamental human right that supports the freedom of an individual or a community to articulate their opinions and ideas without fear of retaliation, censorship, or legal sanction. The list of things at the forefront of you mind would fall under the above. You might get your teeth kicked in but by the actual freedom of speech definition rathe…

Huh? It's called criminal verbal threats and they're quite illegal. Case laws have upheld them numerous times. This isn't "interpreted truths", racial slurs have been interpreted as intent and such things have been prosecuted.

And you want missgendering to be interpreted legally as the equivalent of a death threat?
Post reply on HN