Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#561

Post by stnmtn » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

zaarn wrote: post #482

flippinburgers wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This what-about mentality that fragments the population into increasingly small groups while expecting everyone else to adhere needs a course correction.

I don't want to fragment, I want these people to be recognized as what they identify; women. Even if they don't have the right chromosomes, there is atleast a dozen reasons someone might still have grown up as female or identifies female.

I fully believe trans women are women, but I'm genuinely curious as to what the feminist response to stuff like these competitions should be when it's clear that trans women have a distinct and irrerperable advantage over biological women.

What potential problems would there be from having a biological women competition, and a trans women competition? Genuinely curious as to your answer and I am asking this in good faith

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#562

Post by junon » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 6:52 PM UTC

originalvichy wrote: post #557

junon wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder (saying this in the most scientific way possible). It's not a cultural stigma. So no, I disagree that it has any semblance to the "not black enough" argument.

I did not claim it was not a mental disorder. I said it is linked with identity in a way which is dissimilar to the depression analogy. Is it far-fetched to say that the severity of negative emotional and mental effects on a person depends on how accepting the culture is of those who do not fit into the majority?

No, but that's not what you insinuated, and I feel as though you missed my point - I was simply talking about the reaction by others to a mental condition: saying "you're a biological woman" to a trans woman does about as much good as saying "just be happy" to a depressed person. It doesn't solve anything, and it reduces the very real condition and the effects of said condition down to talking points and virtue signalling.

Having gender dysphoria isn't a thing to be ashamed of, just any other mental health condition is not something to be ashamed of. Saying "you're a biological woman sis" is like saying "we're just going to act like you don't have it because it's shameful".

It doesn't make any sense from me, nor does it make sense to most of the trans individuals I follow. It seems, yet again, to be the allies that cause the most misinformation (just like we faced with the gay marriage debates).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#563

Post by jeremysalwen » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:02 PM UTC

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #235

jeremysalwen wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, as OP said, it is a continuum. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter_syndrome , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_insensitivity_syndrom... , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex . It is just very strongly bimodal (even more strongly than gender).

Tell me, if sex is a continuum, does this mean that a tall, strong, bearded male is "more of a man" than a weak, short, effeminate male? Also: people with Klinefelter Syndrome are male.

I am not making specific claims about where specific individuals are classified in terms of sex, because I am not an expert. I am implying pointing out that the idea of sex as a discrete variable with two choices in humans is wrong. It is usually bimodal, in the vast majority of people (including trans people), where the chromosomes are XX or XY, and the gametes are eggs or sperm, and the external genitals are vaginal or penile, ovaries are present or not, testosterone is low/high, etc. However, there is no law of nature that these dimensions of sex agree with each other, or that there aren't intermediate states for any specific dimension. You seem so proud of the fact that "Klinefelter Syndrome are male" (failing to specify exactly why they are classified that way), but that doesn't help you deal with the fact that there is not rule that will classify everyone neatly into two categories, even if the rule in your head is "obvious" with "Klinefelter Syndrome".

And before you say "this is purely hypothetical, these sorts of conditions would never affect the practical sorts of discussions we are having here about olympic games", no, it is not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#564

Post by raffraffraff » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #486

esja wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no idea just how massive the biological advantage is. Movies and popular culture have conditioned people to think that females can hold their own against men. Individuals can, in some contexts, where the statistical distribution overlaps. For example a mediocre middle aged man can be beaten in strength or speed sports by an athletic 20-something woman. But at the tails of the distribution, where the…

Why should women's championships even exist? Isn't that just a pity prize? Either design a game where women tend to perform better (like certain forms of gymnastics) or where they tend to be more interested due to the cultural aspects (like cheer/dance), or let women compete in other areas of endeavor. Why have leagues for women in basketball but not "men under 6ft tall"? Is it to encourage girls and women to be phys…

Why should they exist? Sounds to me like you're suggesting that female people should be forbidden from organising their own sporting competitions unless it's mudwrestling, foxy boxing and such-and-such (to quote Homer Simpson).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#565

Post by ben_w » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:25 PM UTC

ffggvv wrote: post #554

ben_w wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ultimately irrelevant, given the chromosomes produce stuff we can synthesise or inhibit. Not yet perfectly of course, but anabolic steroids have been synthesised since the 1930s, and are effective enough to be banned in sport.

not really. there’s a lot more to you than just things you synthesize or inhibit. not to mention development that happens in the womb etc that’s non reversible. hormones won’t change your bone structure or the shape of your hips or a million other things

It’s still an open question as to why trans people are trans, but it definitely looks like something is already different as early as the womb.

But that isn’t important, because even if it were false: Purely for the question of athletics, athletic performance trumps all else.

Medical doctors will still need to know about chromosomes for dealing with chromosomal disorders, and if you’ve had your gonads out you’re not going to get gonad cancer, but purely for gender-related athletics issues, the 80-20 principle applies: most of the “million” things your chromosomes do are the same for basically everyone (and thus the reason nobody is born a literal banana), then there’s the subset of chromosomal stuff which affects athletic performance, then the subset of that subset where the gender interacts with the athletic genes such that men and women with those genes perform differently, and in that subset of a subset the difference can be overwhelmed by externally supplied steroids.

Which is why steroids are banned.

Now, in the specific case in this article, transition happened well into adulthood, and the athlete says:

> Vanbellinghen, 27, whose qualifying efforts were disrupted by injury, pointed out that the retained benefit of taking steroids, even years earlier, is widely known.

> "So why is it still a question whether two decades, from puberty to the age of 35, with the hormonal system of a man also would give an advantage [in competing against women]?

Obviously this isn’t the same as the case of someone transitioning pre-puberty. But, as I say, it’s why some trans people want to transition pre-puberty.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#566

Post by faeriechangling » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:30 PM UTC

alisonkisk wrote: post #486

esja wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people have no idea just how massive the biological advantage is. Movies and popular culture have conditioned people to think that females can hold their own against men. Individuals can, in some contexts, where the statistical distribution overlaps. For example a mediocre middle aged man can be beaten in strength or speed sports by an athletic 20-something woman. But at the tails of the distribution, where the…

Why should women's championships even exist? Isn't that just a pity prize? Either design a game where women tend to perform better (like certain forms of gymnastics) or where they tend to be more interested due to the cultural aspects (like cheer/dance), or let women compete in other areas of endeavor. Why have leagues for women in basketball but not "men under 6ft tall"? Is it to encourage girls and women to be phys…

For the same reason that weight classes exist and cause people to pay millions and millions to watch Floyd Mayweather box when a super heavyweight could pound him into pulp.

It allows more people to compete in sport.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#567

Post by faeriechangling » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

buran77 wrote: post #344

ivanbakel wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

While it's hard to draw a precise line, there's a clear difference between having some genetic features that give you an advantage, and having most genetic features that give you an advantage. Growing up under the influence of male genetics and hormones gives an individual a massive advantage in such a sport, that simply cannot be compensated for or against with just training or medical solutions. There's nothing tha…

I feel something being overlooked is the fact that it's relatively easy to dope without detection when your natural state is "doping" when weightlifting is one of the dirtiest sports out there.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#568

Post by faeriechangling » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:44 PM UTC

lodi wrote: post #523

danadannecy wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our b…

> But, if you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with, are you going to trust logic, or your own experiences? Do you support applying that same logic to transracialism? E.g. white woman identifying as a black woman?

White/black may be widely viewed as preposterous but things like Hispanic/white are often a matter of self identification and culture more than genetic reality.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#569

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

hypnoscripto wrote: post #180

ffggvv wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pretty sure if you take any random 250lb male that plays football or something they could be the number one female lifter in the world if they identify as a female for an hour. so not sure if that disqualification would matter

I don't think that's really relevant. In no world are people without medical treatment going to be considered, and no one is going to go through that just to win a medal.

[deleted]

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#570

Post by yoz-y » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:08 PM UTC

strange_loops wrote: post #551

yoz-y wrote: post #206

At some point we need to stop and realise that some problems just don’t have a solution that is going to please everybody. In this case there is an option to annihilate hopes and dreams of either transgender athletes, or women. Both options suck, but the second one affects disproportionately more people.

How many minorities are you willing to apply this to? And in how many areas of life and society?

Very few, I'd even say that I have no other example in mind at the moment. I'm not saying that we should not strive to find the most equal way of solving all problems, just that some just don't have a good answer. These should go by the way of least damage.