Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#521

Post by danadannecy » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

secondcoming wrote: post #440

danadannecy wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our b…

Thanks for your response; I was expecting to be on the receiving end of downvotes/abuse. > you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with I have no problem with believing that some people aren't the gender they physically represent. But, in my mind, arriving to the conclusion that 'I don't identify as a male, therefore I mu…

> But, in my mind, arriving to the conclusion that 'I don't identify as a male, therefore I must be female' isn't right.

I think for trans women, it isn't so much a conclusion following from not identifying as male as it is simply 'I identify as female', but this runs into the same issue that you brought up in your first comment of not actually knowing what being female is. But then again, doesn't knowing they're not male imply they know what being male is despite not being male? I think it's just too philosophical of a point for most trans people to concern themselves with when they're dealing with who knows how many other issues.

I recommend either reading or watching more stories about trans people's personal experiences if you want to get a better sense as to why people feel that way, as different people probably have different reasons. I don't personally have any recommendations (the quote I mentioned earlier was a small comment from a video on a completely unrelated topic), but thanks for the recommendation for Benjamin, I'll check him out!

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#522

Post by acituan » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:21 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #432

acituan wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point is that many other things have explanatory power as well and that choosing which categories to consider is ideological. Why have separate sports for sex? No need to complicate; if we didn't have sex segregated sports, for almost all sports (save for maybe open ocean swimming), we couldn't have any women competing at all[1]. In fact there are "battle of sexes" type exhibition matches that demonstrate the r…

I tried finding examples of other sports where women are roughly competitive with men at the top level: archery, shooting, curling, ultra-marathon, gymnastics, climbing.

Roughly competitive doesn't cut it when the competition itself is designed to find out and honor the outliers. If top 3 men in archery has consistently higher scores than the top 3 women, pitting them against each other would mean women not getting any medals anymore.

So unless you have hard statistics to back up these claims or are an expert in one of these fields, I would go with the experts' decision to sex segregate their leagues because they might know a few things or two we won't necessarily consider.

Just from my amateur interest; for outdoors archery, the draw strength matters a lot for accuracy, in curling likewise drive and sweeping strength make a difference.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#523

Post by lodi » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

danadannecy wrote: post #430

secondcoming wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Feel'. My confusion comes from the fact that these people were not born female and so can have no idea what it is to 'feel' like a woman any more than I can 'feel' like a wolf. This then reduces womanhood to a state of mind, rather than any physical and/or chemical criteria, which I think is wrong. Why should natural born women have their identity diluted? It also seemingly reinforces the 'two genders' claim by cate…

In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our b…

> But, if you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with, are you going to trust logic, or your own experiences?

Do you support applying that same logic to transracialism? E.g. white woman identifying as a black woman?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#524

Post by void_mint » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

ajuc wrote: post #515

void_mint wrote: post #513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s already this way. It hasn’t been “about” height in a long time. The best players in the league aren’t the tallest by a long shot. Steph Curry is 6’4.

This is the distribution apparently: https://i.imgur.com/v0QRyDr.png Average is at 200 cm compared to 175 cm in general adult male US population:) Compare this to football: http://www.twolfanger.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Average-...

Not sure what your point is?

The argument presented was that height mattered more than skill. If that were true, the tallest players would also be the best, no? Instead, very clearly, the best players are usually _not_ the tallest, sometimes not even close.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#525

Post by sterlind » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

FriedrichN wrote: post #385

sterlind wrote: post #337

As a trans woman, every time something like this hits the news, it makes me absolutely miserable. Conservatives and TERFs respond with vitriol and attack all of us as a group. I'm made to feel like some viking juggernaut, perverting the youth and forcing my way into women's spaces, when I really just want a quiet happy life as a cripple who can barely walk, much less dominate at weightlifting. The backlash against tr…

Please be aware that people who say this is unfair (in sports) aren't saying trans people aren't allowed to be who they are. I am against trans women competing in women's sports, especially those who transitioned late in their life. But that doesn't mean I'm against trans people. I don't mind the whole bathroom thing. Poop where you want, everybody poops. And conservatives will always find a reason to be against anyt…

yeah that's fair. I'm against trans women who haven't been on hormones for long enough competing in women's sports, and against trans men who are on hormones competing in women's sports. I think if a trans woman managed to completely skip first puberty then they'd probably be fine, since they were never exposed to cis male levels of T, but that's a pretty rare situation for now. for high school sports, I'd be a lot more lenient - something like just being on hormones for a year, since the stakes are lower than the Olympics and it's more of a social opportunity.

but even if we disagree on the specifics of this issue, I'm glad to know there's people like you. thank you!

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#526

Post by a-and » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

sundvor wrote: post #322

a-and wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree with your second point. Your first point touches on why it's such an interesting and difficult problem to solve. 1. Country-wide doping systems that currently exist in weightlifting. Punishing an individual lifter does little to disincentivize doping at a larger scope. A country's sports organization can just take on the next Olympic hopeful (or buy another country's). Alternatively whole countries' parti…

Thanks, appreciated that information about doping. It sure is a tricky subject in weightlifting; someone actually relatively clean (ie doing their best to only take approved or at least non banned supplements) their entire life would likely be considered at a disadvantage? I'll read up on your resources - and yes, different rules across regions would be a big one. Personally I just take Creatine and WPI, but I'm only…

It is indeed! PEDs provide such an advantage in Power sports, that anyone not on them is at a huge disadvantage.

> Personally I just take Creatine and WPI All you need! Similarly I'm an engineer, I compete in a tested powerlifting fed, laying off the "extra supplements" for now.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#527

Post by candybar » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

makeworld wrote: post #133

nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

I'm not sure if it makes sense to include the effects of medical interventions for the purposes of determining which group, athletically speaking, trans-women should belong to. My understanding is that trans-women are women, not because they received medical treatments that affirm their gender, but because they identify as women. Thus, gender identity, except to the extent that it correlates with biological sex, has very little direct effect on athletic performance. Yes, some choose to receive treatments that reduce their athletic performance, but that's true of many other athletes - sometimes you have to choose between your own health and competition and making the best choices for health often means forgoing a chance to be a top athlete.

If anything, going by biology is more inclusive because it allows both trans-women and trans-men to compete fairly against others that share their biological sex, as long as they postpone treatments until their athletic career is over. If we go by this evolving combination of gender identity and hormone level checks, pre-treatment trans-women aren't allowed in any category, post-treatment trans-women have a massive advantage over biologically female bodies, pre-treatment trans-men cannot compete at all and post-treatment trans-men are still at an extreme disadvantage.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#528

Post by a-and » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

nimbleal wrote: post #213

crowf wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many sports have many categories. Boxers and wrestlers are separated based on weight

Yes, but as mentioned elsewhere weight alone would do little to solve this issue. Males would still dominate. So presumably you include other factors — but then you are simply dividing by ability. You could conceivably attempt to divide by innate ability (theoretically allowing competitors to compete against one another based on nurture, not nature) but that would be impossible to do fairly or in a way that would mak…

> but then you are simply dividing by ability

While I understand the sentiment, but I think we need to speak of skill vs physical factors. The division of weightlifters in weight classes is to deal with the latter rather than the former.

Similarly - WADA does this already by banning doping. PEDs don't make you a high-skill athlete, they enhance physical capabilities (stronger, faster recovery etc).

Laurel Hubbard is in an unfortunately unique position, where she's at a natural advantage due to higher testosterone levels earlier in life.

It might be impossible to end up with a fair division, but I don't think "no division" is a good answer.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#529

Post by throwaway486165 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

Thorrez wrote: post #301

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All physical aspects? No probably not, the movements and motions that make up almost all sports? Yes, and that’s just reality. I am struggling to come up with any that women as a generalized block might be naturally better at. Maybe some fineness movements like some forms of dance or balance. Another user above nailed it, this is a newly self-inflicted problem.

I think women tend to be better than men at 200+ mile ultramarathons. https://www.insider.com/women-are-faster-long-distance-runne...

It's not as simple as it seems, the insider article focuses on average pace, but if you look at race winners more often than not its still a man, this difference in average is probably due to the higher number of men completing with a higher variance in ability.

I think it would be more truthful to say as distances increase the ability for women to complete with men also increases but we have not yet found a distance where women have a definite advantage.

This BBC article covering this topic does much better at explaining the state of affairs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49284389

This is in no way meant to disparage what any of these athletes, male or female. When it comes down to grim determination and pushing the human body to its very limits men and women are the same, but it is also telling that we need to get to this point of pain management and mental fortitude to level the playing field.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#530

Post by pja » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 4:51 PM UTC

Y_Y wrote: post #364

pja wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the court held two things: 1) Strongly held philosphical beliefs have much the same protection as religious beliefs in law and 2) That doesn’t mean you get to express those beliefs to other people in workplace. In other words, anti-trans (or GC) beliefs occupy much the same position in law as anti-gay Christian beliefs. You can /believe/ them all you like & can’t be sacked for that belief, but if you expres…

Is being philosophically critical of something automatically hostile? There are plenty of things that would argue against on a moral basis, that are important parts of the lives of some of the people I've worked with. I'd never harass them directly or indirectly for one of these things, but it would be hard to keep them a complete secret either. On the other side of the coin, I recognise that the people I work with w…

> Is being philosophically critical of something automatically hostile?

Not in terms of the Equality Act. You can be as critical as you like in private, or outside the workplace as I understand things.

But if you voice those criticisms directly to someone in the protected class in the workplace, then you’ve crossed the line.

So, eg, telling a gay person to their face that you oppose gay marriage & all gay people are going to hell might be your strongly held philosophical (or religious in this case) belief, but the act of voicing it to the individual in the protected class breaks your employers obligations under the Equality Act in the UK & they would be entitled to fire you for it. The same goes for persistently mis-gendering a trans person (quite apart from it being extremely rude of course!) as gender re-assignment forms a protected class in law.

(Obviously, this is as I understand things & not the opinion of a legal expert in these matters.)