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Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

nytimes.com

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Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#381

Post by wyager »

dwater wrote: post #361
wyager wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has some of the best-funded public schools in the world and some of the worst outcomes in public schools. “Funding” is a red herring at best and an excuse for extractive politics in reality. It turns out that life outcomes have approximately nothing whatsoever to do with how much money your childhood schools got. It also strikes me as quite perverse to blame people who are able to move their children out of sc…

Yes, the problem is not school funding but school segregation. It takes more than money to help high needs students, it takes attention and support. If your child needs attention and support and they go to a school where the majority of their peers have the same needs, none of them will get it.

Hold on… your claim is that students are not having their special needs met, and your solution is to put them in a school that’s even less equipped to handle their special needs? Schools absolutely should be segregated, as much as possible, by things like academic ability. That’s the only way schools can effectively meet students where they’re at. It takes a totally different strategy to help a low-performing student catch up vs helping a high-performing student excel. By forcing those kids into the same classroom, you’re not helping either of them.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#382

Post by wyager »

oezi wrote: post #365
wyager wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re making the same exact mistake that education activists have made for the last 60 years. Education does not significantly improve outcomes. Period. What people observe is that people who went to top-tier schools end up being very successful, and make the (totally false) inference that top-tier schools make you successful. In reality, the people who were almost certainly going to be successful anyway get into th…

I agree about the signifier, but still think education has a real value outside the pure signalling. You need experts and for that you need schools/colleges because in most jobs you will not learn wide enough nor deep enough (exceptions are possible).

Yes, you need experts, but the people who are going to really benefit from expert-level training were probably already going to go to college anyway. Doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc are part of the upper class in one way or another.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#383

Post by jacobr1 »

wyager wrote: post #348
lappet wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is the main con of American individualism. The alternative is the culture in Asian societies and perhaps to some extent in European ones as well - there is always an Uncle or Aunty who is watching out for you. Of course that has cons where you can't do things that are unconventional, but at the very least you have a stop gap to help young people who are lost.

The greatest and most rapid creation of wealth in human history occurred in the US under an even more extreme form of American individualism than exists today. Europe is quite poor relative to America precisely because its anti-individualism prevents the formation of economic-political environments conducive to wealth creation.

And yet that same sort of "village culture" of adults in a neighborhood looking after the kids collectively was very common in America throughout much of its history; co-occurring with individualism.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#384

Post by beerandt »

mnowicki wrote: post #221
beerandt wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the do-ing in this case would be quit working the dead-end job and finding another one. If what you're doing now hasn't presented an opportunity for advancing, don't keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

Have you ever met a person who eats rice and ramen and whatnot all week so they can make it to their next paycheck(s), and eats next to nothing before pay day because they literally just don't have money to buy food to eat. You want them to quit their job(s), and what, figure out something else in ~4 days before they have 0 dollars left for food & electricity & rent & internet(if they have it at all). I know a couple…

1) There's no reason you can't look for a job before quitting your current one. In fact, you should always be looking for better opportunities, no matter how much you like your current job.

2) Is it harder for parents, single or not? Yea. Yet these are the people you most often see make the change. They have the right motivation, moreso than singles their age without kids.

3) The fact that the low paying job exists, and will always exist, doesn't mean you have to be the one to do it forever. Or anyone else.

You get a job, you get experience, you move on to a better job, and someone with less experience takes over your old job. The world turns.

>some percentage of the population will be in this situation

Yes- entry level workers, kids, and maybe some people that are rebuilding their life. They're not meant to be careers.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#385

Post by afarrell »

grumblenum wrote: post #358
Applejinx wrote: post #321

A lot of people here need to talk to some entrepreneurs. It doesn't matter how good, or how well funded, the school system is: if the family is poor, you're not going to be able to float rent on the storefront you need, or purchase initial inventory of whatever you're making, much less soak up a few false starts, much less take out a bank loan to do any of these things. Period. This does not in ANY WAY mean there sho…

Here I thought I was underachieving because I was reading HN comments instead of doing anything productive. Now I see that the world, or at least subsets of the population I’m allowed to blame for my problems, has wronged me, which appeals to my petty sense of envy and bitterness and assuages the guilt I had about not actually trying. Perhaps this inequality is actually a grand conspiracy. I wish the press, academia,…

Different goals for different conversations.

Your therapist or coach should be talking to you about the importance of taking care of yourself and getting after your own individual goals.

Your school board and legislature should be talking about solving systemic problems.

Don’t spitefully wait for your legislature to act before you start exercising self-discipline.

Don’t get in the way of people trying to solve systemic problems because they make your self-discipline less needed in some way.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#386

Post by LudwigNagasena »

sc68cal wrote: post #324
mgh2 wrote: post #196

Education is worthless if there are no opportunities. In Argentina, there are PhDs as cab drivers. Opportunities are correlated to how well authorities run the country. There is some data trying to pinpoint relationships with other factors: GDP, corruption, and religion, etc. https://m-g-h.medium.com/in-data-we-trust-2978dacc8c22

Don't forget that Argentina's economy was the brainchild of the right wing in the United States, and specifically the Chicago School of economics. They overthrew a democractically elected government and installed a military dictatorship, in order to push their preferred economy

Argentina was always high on Peronist kool-aid, it has nothing to do with the Chicago School of economics.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#387

Post by scotuswroteus »

mgh2 wrote: post #196

Education is worthless if there are no opportunities. In Argentina, there are PhDs as cab drivers. Opportunities are correlated to how well authorities run the country. There is some data trying to pinpoint relationships with other factors: GDP, corruption, and religion, etc. https://m-g-h.medium.com/in-data-we-trust-2978dacc8c22

In America, there are PhDs as cab drivers. We call it Uber. C'mon.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#388

Post by aroundtown »

It was only a way to move up into and through the middle class. It was never a ticket to any place else. The reason is simple, lack of opportunity. Sometimes opportunity is money, privilege, or luck. Sometimes it's being at the right place at the right time, befriending the right person at a party, or working together on a group project.

Every entrepreneur that I have known has come has some sort of privilege to get them where they are. One, not only had moderately wealthy parents, but those parents raised him inside of a successful store. From a young age he was taught how to make a venture work, he had a fall back if he failed, and he had people to call if he needed advice. Because of the opportunities they had in life, they believe that it was all hard work and intelligence that got them there.

My best friend from grade school was very wealthy. My friend has had more opportunities in life, just because their parents could float them while they took unpaid internships, complete graduate school, and buy them a nice big house so they could settle down and start a family.

If you want a 'great equalizer' you have to provide opportunity to those that don't have it. You have to check your privilege at the door and consider for a moment that some people don't have it as good as you. You have to give people a chance to prove themselves.

Even in the US and in Tech, if you were raised or live outside of a major metro, you are at a significant disadvantage to those who had the luck to living in one. If we want to fix this, we have to prioritize giving more opportunities to those who don't have them.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#389

Post by erik998 »

arminiusreturns wrote: post #378
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't dispute the existence of class war (though I don't think it's about "middle class" and more about "working class" and I don't think this process is deliberate, more systemic).... But I would quibble about the role education content plays. Canada doesn't have the same kind of tiered education system that the US has. Public schools are funded out of pooled revenue not local taxes for example so poor neighbourho…

I disagree strongly about curriculum. Just to give an example, here is an exerpt about the language curriculum at Eton from a modern (90s) graduate: "Everyone must learn Latin and French for the first two years. Most boys have studied Latin and French for a couple of years before they arrive at the school. The cleverer boys also do Ancient Greek. There are many more languages offered besides these ones. The additiona…

Actually, Mark Zuckerburg went to Phillips Exeter Academy.

"At Ardsley High School, Zuckerberg excelled in classes. After two years, he transferred to the private school Phillips Exeter Academy, where he won prizes in mathematics, astronomy, physics, and classical studies." [no coding classes, hmm?]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Exeter_Academy

The facebook idea came from the booklet tey give each class with a picture of the student's face and location.

https://readwrite.com/2009/05/10/mark_zuckerberg_inspiration...

Many other founders went to similar schools. I was not aware of this until I did policy debate and met these types of students. They do live in a bubble and have no idea how to relate to the rest.

In fact, a good thing to do is always check the high school of these "founders." Check their curriculum...

When I see trade school students doing billion dollar startups, I will believe education is no longer a great equalizer. At the same time, I believe if you want to participate in the American oligarchy or compete with them, you need to become familiar with where they get their training.

It's not always the case but most times if you delve into their background you will find this to be the case.

Re: Is education no longer the ‘great equalizer’?

#390

Post by arminiusreturns »

BobbyJo wrote: post #322
arminiusreturns wrote: post #291

The oligarchs have been working to detroy the middle class for a long time now (see the Norman Dodd interview or The Leipzig Connection), and education is a key piece of that work, because it truly can be a great equalizer. You will notice not just different curriculum, but entirely different methods being used at a posh place for the elite like Eton, vs a (US) public school or even most upper middle class private sc…

I hear this a lot and I have a hard time believing it. What is something the rich have done with the intent to destroy the middle class? Your example with public vs private schools has less to do with diminishing public schools and everything to do with their maximizing their own children's education. If we end private schools, do we still allow paid tutors? If so, I don't see how that field gets levelled.

First, the bar you set is probably too high. Intent is notoriously hard to prove, even with deductive evidence, much less inductive evidence.

Also, I never advocated for ending private schools. You are strawmanning that one, and it's a perhipherial point to the topic anyway.

Since you asked though, how about the Fed's endless bailouts of the rich that are still ongoing? Those same bailouts that then get turned around into lobbying dollars to rewrite the laws to favor corporations over people (or stock buybacks, I could go on)? Like I said, intent is hard to prove, but there is a lot of inductive evidence pointing towards it being of a high probability.

"Empires are even sometimes represented as unintentional. That's when it really starts to get cute. This should have been called maybe the funnier myths of empire, this part of it. The product of unconcious circumstance. When I was a youth, ... I used to hear that the British Empire was put together in a fit of absent mindedness. ... In fact, ladies and gentlemen, I think a moments reflection would tell you that empires are products of deliberate contrivance, of deliberate confection, planning, calculation, and manipulation. No social order can maintain itself in the long run, no social order can maintain itself without concious human agency. In fact that's why you have a state, the state is the concious human agency of coercion to maintain that particular set of interests and order, which don't necessarily always look out for our interests." - Michael Parenti

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOF56wYTl1w

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