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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#491

Post by Karrot_Kream »

dvt wrote: post #457
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is provably untrue. Both of you are correct, you're just looking at probabilities conditioned in the opposite way. You're looking at P(trans | killed), which is low. The parent post is looking at P(killed | trans), which is quite high. Understandably, if you are trans P(killed | trans) is a lot more relevant to you than P(trans | killed).

I don't agree, we were talking about proportionality. 0.6% of the US adult population identify as trans (1,254,000). Of that 0.6%, 44 were killed. The math is simple. The overall murder rate in the USA is 0.005% (population: 328 million, yearly murders: 16,425). The per-capita murder rates of trans people in the USA is 0.0035%, barely over half the national average. To make the claim that trans people are disproporti…

> To make the claim that trans people are disproportionately affected by crime/violence is simply not true.

It's well-known that many trans hate crimes go unreported or misreported (as the victim is misgendered). So unless you really think it was highly unlikely for there to be >= 19 unreported/misreported trans deaths (19 + 44 / 1_254_000 > 0.005%), then trans death rates are probably higher.

At least one source which mentions it: https://www.out.com/crime/2020/7/02/these-are-trans-people-k...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#492

Post by nepeckman »

mdoms wrote: post #473
nepeckman wrote: post #360

One thing I find very troubling about articles like this is the tendency to frame hot political topics as essentially academic, while they are in fact very practical. Across the US and England, trans people are being denied access to health care, medically necessary operations, and effective therapeutic treatment. But this article doesn't discuss those issues, it only discusses the ramifications of this political rea…

This article also doesn't discuss the plight of the Uyghurs, bee colony collapse or the atmosphere of Venus. Because that's not what this article is about.

The plight of the Uyghurs does not relate to the political oppression of trans people. Political oppression of trans people is inextricable from the discussion of anti trans ideology on college campuses. To make an analogy, this article is like writing about the Uyghur genocide, but instead of discussing concentration campus or the Chinese government, focusing instead on one individual who wasnt allowed to speak because they said "China has done nothing wrong." Do you see the problem? Instead of focusing on actual tragedy, I have derailed the conversation by framing the plight of this poor pro China individual as the real issue. Now the comments are debating the subjects of academic free speech and cancel culture instead of the real issue at hand.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#493

Post by worik »

notahacker wrote: post #136
MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

Fear of rape or pressurised sex amongst prisoners is perfectly real, but if a tiny minority of transpeople are a distant third in terms of sexual threat to female prisoners behind male warders and natal females and a campaign organization proposes rehousing transpeople (all 125 of them) in different prisons as their solution to prison rape over better safeguarding practises or single occupant cells which might offer…

The prison debate is a red herring

People who run prisons are often sadists.

In double bunked men's prisons rapists get to ply their trade. Get double bunked along with the rest.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#494

Post by swebs »

swebs wrote: post #349
caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males. I'd wager that most people believe this. Not just feminists.

54 percent of Americans believe "whether a person is a man or a woman is determined at birth". There is a wide partisan divide with 80 percent of Republicans agreeing (so probably not radical feminists) and only 34 percent of democrats agreeing.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#495

Post by jfengel »

deadite wrote: post #319
caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

The Olympics has been dealing with the question of womanhood for a very long time. For a while they were literally stripping and groping female athletes. Later they did chromosome testing, until they discovered intersex individuals who confound that theory.

Even their current testosterone-levels theory is imperfect, since some people have obviously female bodies but inordinately high testosterone levels.

So they seem to be muddling along about as well as they can. If they want to have a separate women's category, it's a question they're going to have to answer.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#496

Post by delecti »

lovegoblin wrote: post #483
r00fus wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who is CIS, I also don't try to imply a sexuality in myself or others unless I'm with people I know. I try not to speak about my wife, but my "spouse" and try to use gender-neutral terms where appropriate.

> As someone who is CIS I often wonder where this misconception originated: why do people think that "cis" is an acronym? What do they think it stands for? It's just a prefix; the antonym of "trans."

I've seen people mistakenly assert the backronym "comfortable in skin". I'm not sure why else it would be so common.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#497

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

What level of outrage? I notice a lot of outrage online from people whose identities I cannot verify. I have noticed zero outrage IRL from real people that I interact with.

Small sample size but I think that judging outrage from online presence is inaccurate.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#498

Post by s1artibartfast »

chc wrote: post #428
swebs wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males. I'd wager that most people believe this. Not just feminists.

Polling suggests otherwise: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-supp... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/548775-new-poll...

There are a lot of shades of trans support, If you asked the most extreme questions you would probably get different answers.

It is one thing to ask people should be able can use a bathroom, and another to ask questions about personal sexlife and behavior. i.e. if you asked people if you consider transwomen equally with women at birth as sexual partners, I bet the numbers fall through the floor.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#499

Post by worik »

slibhb wrote: post #347
throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs". When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfect…

I am with you until "...the vast majority of people".

I am not sure it is true, and utterly sure it does not matter

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#500

Post by joshuamorton »

kwanbix wrote: post #369
inglor_cz wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some languages actually do have a central authority. IDK about Spanish, but my native language (Czech) definitely has an official standard. Anyone can , of course, use any weird construction they want, it is just not correct Czech.

Spanisch also hast it. Real academia española But he post of the other member was about that languages naturally evolve, which is true, but this is forced and unatural.

What makes it forced or unnatural? It's intentional, to be sure, but hope does that make it less natural? Or put differently, how do you distinguish between a natural and unnatural change to language?
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