A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#361

Post by caeril » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

deadite wrote: post #319

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

> I'm often confused as to why this topic comes up on HN

Take a look around, I think you'll find transmen comprise a much larger proportion of this community (and tech communities in general) than the general population.

There's also a lot of desire on HN to comment on political topics while pretending not to comment on political topics. Things like gender identity, women in tech, genetic differences, etc are all wonderful smokescreens to allow us to post politically but maintain a solid veneer of simply having an intellectual discussion on a topic of general interest.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#362

Post by robertlagrant » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

wetmore wrote: post #184

adventured wrote: post #150

The same has occurred in regards to race. For decades the ideological left preached, quite aggressively and consistently, that we must move to a post racial society, that race should not matter. This was the clear majority belief on the left as recently as the beginning of Obama's first term. My entire childhood was filled with that preached gospel: a person's character is what matters, do not pay attention to their…

I think the "they" in your post is actually a bunch of disparate groups. You are acting like there is internal inconsistency, but that's because the conflicting beliefs came out of different camps. Anyway, I think most people in support of the "new" ideology, as you call it, would say that the "old" ideology was flawed. Some might say it was bullshit, some might just say it was misguided or overly hopeful. Ideas chan…

> Anyway, I think most people in support of the "new" ideology, as you call it, would say that the "old" ideology was flawed. Some might say it was bullshit, some might just say it was misguided or overly hopeful.

While there are of course real injustices, which different people think motivate different responses, what we're talking about here feels manufactured in (mostly) American universities. Nothing like deliberately splitting people along the lines of immutable characteristics to create problems for social scientists to "solve".

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#363

Post by mike00632 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

textgel wrote: post #342

mike00632 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my legal name is "Michael". If I asked you to call me "Mike" is that really such a pain for you?

No, but if you ask me to call you a chartered mechanical engineer when you aren't then that changes things.

Trans people aren't asking to get credit for certifications or degrees they didn't receive. Calling someone by their preferred pronouns isn't bestowing an honorific upon someone (as if it's up to you to be the arbiter of that anyways). It's basic decency.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#364

Post by plank_time » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

In the UK prisons, transgender women sexually assault women 5x more than cis women sexually assault women.

https://archive.is/iYD5T

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#365

Post by chc » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

Based on the numbers I've seen, there are slightly more trans people in the world than blind people, but overall — you're not wrong. I don't even think most trans rights advocates would disagree with you that the amount of attention devoted to transgender people is excessive. The reason transgender people are getting more attention than blind people is because there is currently a strong movement to regress transgender rights, while there isn't an equivalent movement for blind people. Transgender people have some asks in terms of societal support (e.g. British law has some awkward legal red tape for trans people around things like marriage), but in general, most of the noise is being generated by the anti-transgender side (e.g. bans on therapy for transgender people, bathroom bans, sports bans, outrage at voluntarily chosen gender-inclusive phrasing like "people who have a uterus").

So it's a bit of a hard subject. I really don't think it's worth this much attention, but if hate groups are devoting this much attention to opposing transgender people, we're faced with the choice of either also giving it a lot of undue attention or throwing transgender people to the wolves.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#366

Post by raffraffraff » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

ska wrote: post #351

whateveracct wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Feminists (TERFs) One note: Nobody self-identifies as a TERF. Or at least not originally (I'm sure in Internet ire people do it ironically by now.) It's mostly a label used to crush nuanced conversation.

> Or at least not originally I've heard it was the other way around, i.e. it started off as a self identification for a niche group which people started to reject once it begun to be used pejoratively.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/im-cre...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#367

Post by mdoms » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

If the issue is that voices are being censored then the issue affects everyone who is studying in a university - massively more than your figures.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#368

Post by karpierz » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

cheeseomlit wrote: post #332

mike00632 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

A name is not an intrinsic trait of a person, it's a legal abstraction. Your name has no meaning outside of it's designation as a name and you can change it at any time. 'Mike', 'Michael', and 'Michelangelo' all mean the same thing- it's just an arbitrary word used to identify a person. 'Him' and 'Her' on the other hand are not arbitrary and do not mean the same thing, they refer to directly observable biological tra…

How do you tell if someone is a 'him' or 'her'? What are the criteria you use to make that decision, and why are they immutable?

(Please don't say XY chromosomes, you don't do a genetic test on everyone you meet.)

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#369

Post by kwanbix » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #358

lotu wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language is defined by the people who speak it, not by some authority. If people are using “les” than it is part of Spanish.

Some languages actually do have a central authority. IDK about Spanish, but my native language (Czech) definitely has an official standard. Anyone can , of course, use any weird construction they want, it is just not correct Czech.

Spanisch also hast it. Real academia española

But he post of the other member was about that languages naturally evolve, which is true, but this is forced and unatural.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#370

Post by btilly » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:11 PM UTC

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

That is hard to say.

In a world full of discrimination against trans folks, who knows how many people who would prefer being trans have failed to be identified?

But the topic is much bigger than that. You see, the ideology being pushed says that everyone who has gender dysphoria should be assumed to be trans. But a LOT of teenagers, particularly girls, go through a period of gender dysphoria when they hit puberty. What little research exists on the topic says that most of those girls will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and well-meaning attempts at gender reassignment surgery for them will backfire. However said research is highly controversial exactly because it undermines the politically correct ideology that we should take seriously all claims that physical appearance is less important than chosen gender.

And THAT is the real problem. I don't have statistics. But anecdotally I have a 12 year old with gender dysphoria. Many of their friends have the same. I personally know more children claiming to be trans at present than I've known people who were blind or missing a limb over my entire life.

A *LOT* of parents are in my boat. It is easy to find opposing ideologies about how we should deal with our teenage children. There is very little research. And people are so focused on yelling at each other that nobody dares DO more research. Because no matter what you find, you're going to get targeted by someone.