A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#341

Post by smoldesu » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #230

smoldesu wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was ironically one of the things that was hardest about coming out as gay, for me. Nobody ever treated me the same way again. I was either uncomfortably praised or silently judged, with practically no in-between. Suffice to say, my sexuality is on a need-to-know basis, now.

It's weird to me that sexuality and identity are so intertwined. Why should someone "come out" as anything? (I know a lot of people "come out" as various things in a mere bid for attention... I'll leave that issue aside.) If I knew someone casually for a while who never talked about his/her sexuality, but one day they said "I never said this before, but I'm a heterosexual", I'd certainly feel awkward about it. Why di…

The experience of "coming out" (to me) was reconciling my sexuality with my family. In America, you're basically born straight and everyone in your family assumes so. The easiest part of it was coming out to my close friends, who already know that I'm not vain or chasing attention with it. The harder half is finding some way to frame it to your parents (and grandparents). Knocking on their door, sitting down in their home and eating their food is just irreversibly ruined. In some sense, I know it's my fault: I'm basically telling them that their bloodline ends here, I hope they enjoyed their transient acknowledgement on this earth while it lasts. That's a tough pill to swallow for a generation that's all about making the idyllic "50s family" a reality.

> To take it further, why phrase it "I am ..." instead of "I have ... desires"? If the latter sounds awkward, why is the former any less awkward?

I wish we could do that too, but if I told that to people now I'm gay and a freak. Society won't care one way or the other, because queerness is political now. You're either with "them" or against "us", and never the two shall meet.

That's just my view on it though. I'm only 1 (one) gay person out of millions, so take my anecdata with a grain of salt.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#342

Post by textgel » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #264

jotux wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't this be the opposite of that scenario? As in, someone has a given name at birth but they prefer a nickname and some people find using the nickname too onerous and use their given name instead?

Yeah, my legal name is "Michael". If I asked you to call me "Mike" is that really such a pain for you?

No, but if you ask me to call you a chartered mechanical engineer when you aren't then that changes things.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#343

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

mfarris wrote: post #248

mkr-hn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge part of advocating for the right to self-identify is about respecting identity whether you like/respect someone or not. She didn't get her contract renewed because she made it clear she was going to be an asshole to coworkers on this exact dimension. Correct gendering/identification is not something you have to earn. I still write J.K. Rowling's name out like that because it's how she goes by even though I wou…

J.K. Rowling has stated her love of transpeople and her wish to see them be fully accepted members of society. She has differences of opinion about the best political approach to achieving equality. Because she makes a rational, temperate argument that you do not like, you "wouldn't waste spit on her in hell." Which of you is the more hateful?

[deleted]

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#344

Post by inglor_cz » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

karpierz wrote: post #235

colechristensen wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against. I am of the somewhat progressive-unpopular opinion that some people have an unhealthy interest in how they label themselves and how others perceive them, and in the attempts to be supportive the popular opinion is doing more harm tha…

I don't think it's an issue of people being interested in how they label themselves so much as society being interested in labels for people. If you come out as gay, suddenly there are a load of assumptions placed on you about how you speak, dress, act, what your hobbies are, etc. People adopt identities in these cases because society has preconceived notions of the identity, not because the individual themselves has…

This is a vicious circle. Gays or non-whites are now expected to vote for certain parties (depending on country) etc., and reap bewilderment at the very least if they do not comply with the expectations.

There is, for example, a fairly famous author (Ayaan Hirsi Ali), who is a Somali ex-Muslim, and she says she was having really hard time from the Dutch left when she lived there. Her ideas simply did not fit the preconceived concept of an African immigrant.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#345

Post by vmception » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

Latty wrote: post #297

vmception wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does no…

By this logic, it would be fine if they were infertile, which is obvious nonsense. Sexual assault does not hit some magic breaking point where it becomes an unacceptable risk at the chance of impregnation. If there is a significant risk of sexual assault, then the prison has fundamentally failed and that is the thing that needs fixing. It simply doesn't matter if someone is trans or not, cis people are just as capabl…

the rest of us are starting with the premise that prisons have all failed equally, and find them equally incompetent at any additional vector of assault such as the one that introduces pregnancy

its not nearly as gendered as you are making it out to be, this a condition statement satisfied by some gendered combinations

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#346

Post by f38zf5vdt » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

deadite wrote: post #319

caeril wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>Interestingly enough, there's not much animosity toward trans-men. These ground exclusively concern themselves with trans-women. I second this. Maybe it's some echo chamber effect or a minority stirring shit up, but I've hardly heard anything over the years about transmen-as-men vs men-as-men. It seems like most of the focus is on transwomen-as-women vs women-as-women. Maybe we're not as vocal? Maybe we care less? I…

I think it is the same reason no one has ever cared much about lesbians compared to gay men. [1] But I am not sure why that is.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/lesbians-more-accept...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#347

Post by slibhb » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

throwaway284534 wrote: post #36

There’s a lot that’s already been said in this topic but I feel compelled to bring up the damage imposed by TERF talking points. The conversation goes something like this: “Transgender women possess an innate maleness that carries a non-zero threat to female spaces.” They believe that dictionary definitions of woman are prescriptive, declared at the chromosomes during birth, rather than descriptive, as in how one pre…

I don't think your explanation of "TERF talking points" is fair. Contra Judith Butler it's not clear that feminism has any meaning without some essential idea of "womanhood". That is fundamentally what disturbs "TERFs".

When you talk about "this Goldilocks zone of womanhood," I think you've rediscovering one of the oldest philosophical discoveries: mental concepts and ideas (in this case "woman") do not apply perfectly to the world of appearences. But this does not mean we can jettison concepts and ideas altogether. In fact they seem necessary. So the fact that we cannot seem to come up with a perfect criterion for defining "biological woman" does not mean that we can dispense with that category.

And that's what's being asked of us. We are told "trans women are women". What does that mean? It if means "there is a category, women, and in that category there are trans women and biological women," that's fine with me. If it means "there is no distinction between biological women and trans women," that seems wrong to me and to the vast majority of people.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#348

Post by vmception » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

freemint wrote: post #222

vmception wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its also about the possibility of being impregnated Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion Sex in male prisons does no…

In good faith and not as whataboutism: Do you think being forced to impregnate someone against your will is similarly horrific although less burdensome for the first 9 months?

Yes

What circumstance made you think of that?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#349

Post by swebs » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:04 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #302

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

>2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males.

I'd wager that most people believe this. Not just feminists.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#350

Post by umvi » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

caeril wrote: post #302

drenvuk wrote: post #268

Can someone please tell me how important this topic based on the amount of news time and eyeballs it attracts relative to the number of people that it affects? The numbers I can find for US citizens is: 0.6% or 1,988,696 out 331,449,281 of people total for the entirety of the US in 2021. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_Unite... In the UK where the featured article took place the latest poll I…

There's a large segment of the population that feels actively threatened by trans rights. The two primary components are: 1. Parents and sexual violence victims concerned about the non-falsifiability of trans-identification and the related concerns of sexual predators claiming an identity they don't actually have to gain access to private spaces of women and girls. 2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a…

> Mormons are probably another group due to the reliance of their theology on binary gender, but I don't see them as being particularly vocal on this topic.

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints doesn't appear to feel threatened by transgender rights. At least, not according to official stances here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/topics/transgender