A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities • Hacker News Board

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#281

Post by notahacker » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:48 PM UTC

thereddaikon wrote: post #243

ENIanDEM wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.

That's a strawman. Without proof to the contrary the assumption should be that the trans population has a similar proportion of rapists as any other does. Since its been well established that essentially all rape no matter who is raping who goes under reported it is completely rational for women to be just as fearful as they would with any other stranger.

The question isn't whether women should assume that a transperson is less likely to rape them than any other stranger. That's not what "bathroom bills" are about.

The question is whether bathroom bills forcing transpeople who wish to not break the law (potential rapists are obviously not part of this set...) into men's bathrooms, and a surrounding climate of generalised hostility towards anyone with any remotely masculine element of their physique or style in women's bathrooms actually meaningfully reduces the risk of rape, or just makes the environment more intimidating for everyone.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#282

Post by pumaontheprowl » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:49 PM UTC

freemint wrote: post #190

teh_infallible wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world you’re looking for is “real”

What you just said will understood as extremely hurtful and a purposeful attack on trans people by (some) trans people or trans advocates. Did you do that on purpose?

It's the truth. Trans women are not real women as they do not have the same DNA and cannot birth children (amongst many other differences).

I may be offended when people talk negatively about my under-performing sports team, but that doesn't give me a right to delete their comments just because I perceive them to be hurtful.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#283

Post by ENIanDEM » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

thereddaikon wrote: post #243

ENIanDEM wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't buy this concept that hordes of (or any, for that matter) predatory trans women are queuing up for the chance to prowl round changing rooms. Do you, really? Say you're right. What stops them sneaking in right now? It's not like there are mandatory ID checks at the entrance.

That's a strawman. Without proof to the contrary the assumption should be that the trans population has a similar proportion of rapists as any other does. Since its been well established that essentially all rape no matter who is raping who goes under reported it is completely rational for women to be just as fearful as they would with any other stranger.

It's literally in response to the posit that trans women would rape strangers in changing rooms. I've tried to make it as far from a strawman as possible by arguing against even a single occurrence of that happening.

Cis women can perpetuate rape. Should we ban them from changing rooms too? How far through the looking glass does this have to go?!

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#284

Post by octernion » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #213

>“shut the fuck up, TERF” (trans-exclusionary radical feminist, a slur) I stopped reading there. The protestors are framed as crazy and insane but TERF is a slur, there's no "opinion" marker on the article, it's pretty clear the author is coming from a biased perspective although framed as objective. When they can't even start the article of a controversial topic with even a weak attempt at objectivity I know enough…

TERF is not a slur, lol. what?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#285

Post by HideousKojima » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

avereveard wrote: post #217

gorgoiler wrote: post #88

In a shared space, should the people that share that space have the right to exclude someone if it makes the majority feel unsafe? What about if it makes just one of them feel unsafe? If one person says they feel unsafe, should they be asked to leave instead of the newcomer, with whom the majority are ambivalent? Basically what I’m getting at is what’s the algebra / game theory of creating safe spaces based on tolera…

Ostracizing people based solely on one own feeling sits squarely against the whole concept of presumption of innocence, it's the apotheosis of prejudices against coexistence.

Presumption of innocence is a legal presumption, and it exists there for very good reasons that would take too long to get into. Requiring such a presumption outside of a legal context in the way you're suggesting would undermine a different fundamental right, the freedom of association. People should have the right to associate (and disassociate) with whomever they like for whatever reasons they like, no matter how arbitrary or petty.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#286

Post by ping_pong » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

oofabz wrote: post #98

I don't think gender ideology is an appropriate topic for HN. There is little to be gained and much to be lost from discussing it here. Little to be gained because it has nothing to do with software development, and because gender issues are thoroughly covered elsewhere. Much to be lost because gender issues are so divisive that we risk alienating members of our community.

If you don't want to read the topic, ignore it and move on. I'm not interested in Django but I don't try to stifle conversations on it.

Why are there so many gatekeeping people around that want to prevent discussions on topics that they aren't interested in?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#287

Post by baldanders » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #96

MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

You would have to place them in solitary confinement then, as a trans woman could rape another trans woman.

By that line of reasoning every inmate should be held in solitary confinement by virtue of the fact that rape is possible between every possible pair of gender identities.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#288

Post by LanceH » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #246

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

Sure there is. My legal name and the name I sign on documents is "Michael" but I could have a preference for "Mike". Are you really going to deny that to me because there is an "observable reality" that is different from my preference?

Are you going to lose your shit, call my boss and try to get me fired when I call you Michael because it's what's written down for everyone to see?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#289

Post by RealStickman_ » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

mike00632 wrote: post #252

newsbinator wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defer to nicknames, but if the State or my university or my company forced me to, on pain of getting fired, expelled, fined, or worse, then I wouldn't want to defer to nicknames anymore on principle. I don't care what gender someone calls themselves, and as a nice person I'll try to remember and use it, so long as they don't attempt to get me fired if I get it wrong.

What if you insist on calling that person by the wrong name even though you know it's not what they prefer? That seems like a pretty good example of creating a toxic work environment and you should be fired over it.

That's called being an asshole

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#290

Post by throwaway894345 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #78

Moodles wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I am making the point that even mentioning something as extreme as that still gets me lambasted with abuse. So if we can't even discuss that civilly, how on Earth are we meant to discuss more nuanced issues?

People don’t like their identity being debated. Bringing up trans women in sports as a talking point would be pretty upsetting to most trans women as it is likely to feel like you’re invalidating their personal experience of being trans. There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for mar…

> There’s this thing with marginalized communities where people outside of the communities “just want to have a discussion” but the stakes of that conversation are way too high for marginalized people.

Presumably the "high stakes" are that they might fall out with the majority population, right? In that case why not do all you can to engage productively with them? There was a time when civil rights activists wished for good faith participation.

> The best thing to do in situations like this is to let the marginalized people figure out what they need and then quietly listen to their conclusions.

There are a couple of problems here.

The first is that "their conclusions" are often the conclusions of certain activists and not the marginalized people in question (e.g., "defund the police"). I find this to be the most repulsive kind of rhetoric, because it exploits marginalized groups to the harm of everyone else and to the exclusive benefit of the activist and their ideological comrades.

The second is that it dehumanizes everyone else: others are to simply keep quiet and listen to the marginalized group's needs; to acquiesce. We are all (aspirationally, at least) equal participants in a free society, and we need to find something that works for all of us. Debate is how we do that, even if the topic hits closer to home for some than others.