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A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

economist.com

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Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#191

Post by Udik »

IncRnd wrote: post #176
rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too. Do you recognize that there are actual reasons that a woman might not want to go into a bathroom with 5 men in it?

That they peed all around the toilet?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#192

Post by colechristensen »

fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

You can notice this in a few fields of popular ideologies these days, that is overcorrecting for a problem to the point of becoming exactly the thing one was originally fighting against.

I am of the somewhat progressive-unpopular opinion that some people have an unhealthy interest in how they label themselves and how others perceive them, and in the attempts to be supportive the popular opinion is doing more harm than good. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against anyone with a certain genotype or phenotype having any particular interest in whom they love, how they dress, their hobbies, behaviors, etc. as long as they don’t put hurts on other people. I do have doubts about the amount of “identifying” people do with their preferences though. It can be a subtle point that is hard to make just right without getting pitchforks raised, I’m never sure i’ve done it right.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#193

Post by dang »

f38zf5vdt wrote: post #185
dang wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly a big problem, but HN can't be a site for intellectual curiosity and at the same time exclude every story with political or ideological overlap. People sometimes imagine that that would be better, but only in the context of a specific story or thread they don't like. If you try to imagine it as a general policy it breaks down altogether. Nor would this community accept such severe restrictions on the…

It feels like why subreddits or /pol/ exist: to segregate that to a place where people are most interested.

HN is a non-siloed site, meaning we don't have subreddits, or any of the other ways that large communities segregate themselves. Here we're all in one big room together, like it or not. It's always been that way and I think it's part of its DNA.

This has advantages and disadvantages, as with all such design choices, but it's good to be conscious of what one's design actually is, since otherwise one might end up fucking with the DNA, which doesn't seem like a great idea.

https://hn.algolia.com/?query=silo%20by%3Adang&dateRange=all...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23308098

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#194

Post by jollybean »

bachmeier wrote: post #163
foolinaround wrote: post #38

while this article focusses on the gender ideology issues, IMHO the censorship in universites is on a wider range of issues, with the common denominator being the viewpoints espoused in far-left circles (not passing judgement here on whether they are right or wrong) Enforced group-think is going to be the death of these universities.

> Enforced group-think is going to be the death of these universities. I've been working at universities for a couple decades now and have never experienced "enforced group-think".

Well then you're both 1) of the same political mindset of the majority and therefore less likely to notice and 2) unwilling to take the social temperature of such things because it's obviously happening [1] and there is a mountain of empirical evidence to support the fact that students and faculty are wary of speaking their minds.

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/rabble-rouser/201811...

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#195

Post by iammisc »

rootusrootus wrote: post #145

What a tough problem to solve. My current thought on the gender identity issue is that society should default to the absolute minimum amount of categorizing people by their gender. What you identify as only matters to the extent that we divide people. Nobody would care if you used the women's bathroom, if such a thing did not exist. And when it is absolutely necessary for a distinction to exist, then we can spend the…

> This would mean throwing out a lot of the more epheremeral complaints "I feel unsafe if there is a man in the bathroom." Why? Let's fix that part, then. Because there are going to be scary women too.

You realize having a woman's bathroom was a thing many early feminist groups fought for right?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#196

Post by saxonww »

cheeseomlit wrote: post #156
mike00632 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Not really an apt comparison since there's nothing about a nickname that defies observable reality, a name is a social construct to begin with. Sex however is a biological construct in which the characteristics are directly and quantitatively observable.

The idea is that sex and gender are different though; gender _is_ a social construct. I think lack of agreement on this is a big part of the issue right now.

Edit: as pointed out below, gender roles are something we've made up, but preferences and behavior themselves (which we're calling gender) are not. Still separate from sex.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#197

Post by ausbah »

Animats wrote: post #141

Sudden outbreak of common sense. We need, on social media, to learn how to deal more effectively with excessively loud, but not very numerous, activists. As some previous articles noted, trolling gets more clicks than facts. This empowers extremists, from Q-Anon on to trans activists.

it's very disingenuous to equate Q-Anon to trans rights activists

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#198

Post by jotux »

mike00632 wrote: post #124
fungiblecog wrote: post #92

I think the irony of the current battle around identity is that we have been making steady progress based on the idea that personal characteristics shouldn't matter. However this whole debate is reversing that by not only saying it matters a great deal but that other people should be forced to defer to others personal choices even when it directly affects them

Do you feel the same way about nicknames? If you call someone by a nickname that they don't like and they let you know they prefer their own name then do you consider it too onerous to defer to them about it?

Wouldn't this be the opposite of that scenario? As in, someone has a given name at birth but they prefer a nickname and some people find using the nickname too onerous and use their given name instead?

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#199

Post by SketchySeaBeast »

MyHypatia wrote: post #182
SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

Yes, because women can get pregnant. Then not only do you have to deal with trauma of your sexual assault, you have to deal with the trauma of having a child born from that sexual assault or have an abortion.

So, if someone were infertile it would reduce the threat and be acceptable? You said intact, not fertile.

Re: A backlash against gender ideology is starting in universities

#200

Post by vmception »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #160
MyHypatia wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how it is unreasonable for a female inmate to be uncomfortable sharing sleeping quarters with a person who has a penis (regardless of how that person identifies). The fear that cis-women have of rape is real. The fear that transgender women have of rape in a men's jail is real. I think the fairest thing to do is take both of these fears seriously and house intact trans-women in a space where they neither…

> house intact trans-women Why would a rapist stop wanting to rape regardless of the state of their genitals? Is sexual violation with a penis so much more horrific than other violations it deserves special consideration?

Its also about the possibility of being impregnated

Just personalize the idea, your sister or female significant other was thrown in jail, and then housed with a male who is a trans woman who has sex with her with or without her consent and creates an ongoing consequence that is impossible if trans women were not there

That would be the expectation you would start with to form a conclusion

Sex in male prisons does not result in pregnancy

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