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Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

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Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#361

Post by borski »

robocat wrote: post #306
wizzard wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very well said. Consider how people like to say they have OCD because they think it’s just “liking to be clean”. Most people like things to be clean, right? So anyone could be diagnosed with OCD on a bad day, couldn’t they? No, because OCD is caused by underlying physical problems with the brain that cause very specific symptoms that interfere greatly with your life. When you see a person who is actually diagnosed wi…

> No, because OCD is caused by underlying physical problems with the brain that cause very specific symptoms that interfere greatly with your life. OCD is merely a label for a cluster of symptoms. It says nothing about the cause. The same can be said for the majority of psychiatric diagnoses afaik. E.g. “Doctors aren’t sure why some people have OCD.” - https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/obsessive-compulsive-dis... E…

While we don’t know the exact cause of OCD or ADHD, physically, we do have research that describes correlations. Particularly for ADHD, we know certain areas of the brain that control executive function are generally smaller in people with ADHD. We also know that they generally have lower levels of certain brain chemicals, and we have learned far more about it through radioactive isotope examination of the brain as well.

For OCD: Research suggests that OCD involves problems in communication between the front part of the brain and deeper structures of the brain. These brain structures use a neurotransmitter (basically, a chemical messenger) called serotonin. Pictures of the brain at work also show that, in some people, the brain circuits involved in OCD become more normal with either medications that affect serotonin levels (serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SRIs) or cognitive behavior therapy (CBT).

Just because we don’t know the precise cause doesn’t mean we cannot, in the meantime, help alleviate the symptoms for someone suffering from the syndrome (since we don’t know the precise cause).

Please don’t get in the way of this by implying people are “making it up,” because, simply, they are not. Both of these are extremely well studied syndromes, but really only in the last few decades.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#362

Post by slingnow »

borski wrote: post #199
williamtwild wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"as is the inability to get excited about projects you simply don't want to do - " Why is this ADHD and not just being human? This sounds so basic I have a hard time believing this is because of a condition.

It's not about not getting excited; it's about literally being unable to. Someone with ADHD can sit there and really mean to get excited, and yell at themselves to, and they simply can't do it; their brain won't let them. Someone neurotypical can usually convince themselves to at least do it, and "will" themselves into it. But you're somewhat right, and this is why getting a real diagnosis from a professional is so i…

In what way is yelling at yourself to get excited going to work? How can you _really mean_ to get excited? Who on earth is in such masterful control of their emotional state that they can do this?

I personally think that we've taken something completely normal and turned it into a "disorder" simply because it goes against the societal norm of sitting quietly at a desk for 8 hours a day.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#363

Post by borski »

Graffur wrote: post #340
yumaikas wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, ADHD awareness has gone up a ton in the past year. I definitely agree that "isn't a video game completionist" is hardly a reason, on it's own, to question if one has ADHD, but it could very well be one part of a puzzle if someone has other patterns that line up.

To me that is asking like why don't I go outside and kick a tree. If I don't kick every tree do I have ADHD? My point being is that there is absolutely no reason to be a video game completionist.

You’re right; this fact alone does not diagnose someone with ADHD. Nobody is disputing that.

But we don’t have the parent’s full context - they may have had a dozen other symptoms that they have finally been made aware of, and in that context this may be a symptom.

I don’t play video games enough for it to be one for me, but if I did, I would almost certainly have trouble being a “completionist.” That doesn’t mean I have ADHD, but coupled with about two dozen other personality traits and symptoms, and tons of self-reflection and medical help, it could be a part of that.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#364

Post by tailspin2019 »

borski wrote: post #360
tailspin2019 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes the deadlock phase is front of mind for me right now because I’ve been in it for a couple of weeks. But you’re right that the “neglect phase” accounts for the vast majority of time. And when I’m in that, I forget all about the existence of the “deadlock phase” even though I’ll be hurtling towards another one. Good to know that this self-destructive behaviour is common at least :)

Both of your accounts match my experience, even down to the forgetting. ADHD people are generally bad at self-reflection, and I know I definitely am, despite having gotten better at it over the years. I’m so happy to see this discussion happening on HN

It's actually seeing such discussions about ADHD over the years on HN that led me to seek an assessment and to ultimately be diagnosed myself only a few weeks ago.

It was a massive paradigm shift for me which I'm only still coming to terms with. The various discussions that pop up on HN about this topic have been hugely helpful. More so than many other places on the internet.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#365

Post by slingnow »

emptysongglass wrote: post #140
marvin wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might have been unhelpful way of formulating the response, especially in the light of OP's comments about getting treatment for anxiety and depression. But the comment was probably meant to highlight that there's a sense of ambiguity in medicating what's likely a natural individual difference in brain chemistry. Many diagnosed with ADHD would be considered perfectly well-functioning in a society where hunting, def…

This may be true for tribal societies but we don't live in one anymore and unless I go try and join the sentinels at Sentinel Island, which I have a 99% chance of being killed before reaching, I have to find a way to live and prosper in the society we do have and that's by medicating. I tried for a decade to make myself work "naturally". Almost left to be a monastic forever. At some point you have to pick up the same…

The original topic of this post is someone who is well liked by their coworkers and by the sounds of it plenty productive in the eyes of the company. So your idea that you have to conform at all costs is pretty shaky at best.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#366

Post by yazaddaruvala »

ck425 wrote: post #331
yazaddaruvala wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also sounds like the 80/20 rule and/or procrastination. 80% of the thing takes 20 % of the time, and then a feeling of diminishing returns blocks us from doing the other 80% of the effort. > the project is neglected thereafter. Even if the person still adores the project and hopes to finish it. I am also curious why this is labeled ADHD. To me this seems to just be “the human condition”. I guess from what I’ve r…

You may be right and indeed there's many psychiatrist who openly say that the definition of ADHD and where you draw the line between having it and not is somewhat arbitrary. But if people are struggling and having this diagnosis and these treatments helps with minimal downside then why not use them? I recently got diagnosed and it may just be that I'm naturally very distractible and bad at paying attention. But if th…

Given it helps, I would not ask anyone to stop what they are doing. I was just curious if it might be more “placebo” than chemical, and clearly both the placebo and the chemicals are useful.

Meanwhile, I was just trying to provide extra data, i.e. it’s possible and acceptable to forgive yourself for not being perfect without any diagnosis.

Hopefully it just provides any one who reads this, one extra strategy to help themselves.

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#367

Post by [deleted] »

tasuki wrote: post #324
masukomi wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not about not getting excited. It's the result of being "not excited". Neurotypicals can work on things that are uninteresting to them. ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start. this video does a good job of explainin…

> ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start. Isn't that basically how everyone behaves?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#368

Post by forz877 »

tasuki wrote: post #324
masukomi wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not about not getting excited. It's the result of being "not excited". Neurotypicals can work on things that are uninteresting to them. ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start. this video does a good job of explainin…

> ADHD people can sit there yelling at themselves to "do the thing" that they _know_ they need to do and still be completely incapable of starting regardless of how "easy" it is to actually do it once something forces them to actually start. Isn't that basically how everyone behaves?

Not to the extreme people with ADHD have.

For example, I know many people who just don't show up for work. They just can't get up and do it and they get fired. That isn't typical for how "everyone behaves."

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#369

Post by ljoshua »

mooreds wrote: post #357
ljoshua wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't as true as it's made out to be. I've done it, and with four dependents in tow as well. If you currently work for a big company (or really any company with >50 employees if I recall) you can qualify to take COBRA when you leave. Doing so is expensive, sure, but it's really usually about the same price as private insurance but much better (because it's a group plan). You can elect COBRA for up to 18 m…

> you can use HSA savings to pay for premiums. This is not true, as far as I know. I'd consult a CPA for an authoritative answer, but from https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/health-savings-account-h... > HSA funds generally may not be used to pay premiums.

Good to note, this may have changed then. It was okay last time I did it.

HRAs on the other hand are a good vehicle for this.

EDIT: Ah, there is indeed an exception for continuation of coverage under COBRA which makes it acceptable to do so: https://dpath.com/hsa-and-cobra/

Re: Ask HN: Feeling guilty for doing the bare minimum at work

#370

Post by ljoshua »

tspike wrote: post #320
ljoshua wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really isn't as true as it's made out to be. I've done it, and with four dependents in tow as well. If you currently work for a big company (or really any company with >50 employees if I recall) you can qualify to take COBRA when you leave. Doing so is expensive, sure, but it's really usually about the same price as private insurance but much better (because it's a group plan). You can elect COBRA for up to 18 m…

This is really helpful info. I've been looking at this stuff a lot and I learned these things from you: - COBRA and private health insurance are comparable in cost (I always assumed it was way more expensive) - HSAs can be used to pay premiums These are important pieces of information for figuring this out for me. I don't have four dependents, but I have two and don't have the option of jumping to a spouse's plan, so…

Glad to be helpful. As noted in the other comment and with all things, YMMV, but there's definitely reasonable options out there.
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