Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place • Hacker News Board

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#441

Post by Karsteski » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #438

Karsteski wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah okay fair enough, I would consider those people assholes as well. Although I am against any sort of forced identification on internet forums simply because I would prefer people speak their minds completely openly, regardless of what I think of what they are saying. I don't care for pretense, which is what actually happens IRL, in my experience.

But that's exactly what I'm saying though(sorry if it hadn't come across that way) - the push for forced real name policies is stupid - the main stated goal of it was to improve the quality of discussion and accountability, yet it clearly does no such thing. HN is completely anonymous and yet has much higher standard for discussions compared to literally any other forum I know. And yes, I would also like people to sp…

Ah okay, I misunderstood. We are on the same page then :)

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#442

Post by makeworld » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #226

jl6 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This debate butts up against the limitations of language and it is necessary to take care to define terms. This definition will be more or less useful depending on what you are trying to communicate. “Sex” could be interpreted to mean a statement about chromosomes, in which case there are more than two variants. Or it could be interpreted to be a statement about reproductive potential, in which case the “two sexes” m…

> “Sex” could be interpreted to mean a statement about chromosomes. Yes, it could - by people who don't know what the word "sex" means. Sex isn't about chromosomes, it's about gametes, and sex chromosome variants aren't separate sexes. For example, people with Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY) are male. This isn't hard. https://colinwright.substack.com/p/sex-chromosome-variants-a...

Who is this author? His blog appears to be a crusade against trans people.

> What’s important to note is that the presence of a Y chromosome, or two, or three, etc., all result in the development of testes and therefore these individuals are biologically male. Likewise, individuals with additional or fewer X chromosomes, in the absence of a Y, all develop ovaries and are therefore biologically female.

Looking at things like testes and ovaries is only one part of things, and not some universal definition scientists accept. The author even admits in the comment some people may have both. We also know that some people make have one of these but appear oppositely on the inside/outside.

> This isn't hard.

From my experience, it is deeply complex.

> Effectively regulating sports divisions based on sex using science is impossible. There are no singular or combinations of objective criteria that can define each sex. Prior attempts to govern sports eligibility based on sex using existing testing methods have failed to provide a workable solution based on chromosome composition, physical exam, etc. In other words: we have no way to consistently differentiate male from female and we have never possessed the ability to do so. Gender and sex are not the same thing. Sex is typically assigned at birth based the appearance on appearance of external genitalia and or chromosomal makeup, whereas gender is socially constructed and may vary from culture to culture and/or change over time. However, sex is difficult to dichotomize into two binary divisions because there are a number of different chromosome compositions consistent with either male or female phenotypes. The phrase “biological sex” is meaningless and is ill-advised.

From https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#443

Post by jean_tta » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

knubie wrote: post #424

jean_tta wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's simple: born as a man? Sport like a man. Born as a women? Sport like women. Well, except for people born as women who take testosterone, then.

Or anyone that takes testosterone.

Sounds like it is not that simple in the end, doesn't it?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#444

Post by makeworld » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

zthrowaway wrote: post #144

throw0101a wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At its very core, the exclusion is seen as a form of "well you're not really a woman". For the supporters of trans-women being women, is there a canonical / generally accepted list of criteria which would classify people "objectively" as a woman? If there is such a thing as a group of people that can be called "women", how would membership in that group be established? I.e., what really is a woman?

Pretty easy to answer. A women is someone who can naturally create a child inside of them, or naturally possesses the organs to do so. It’s amazing our collective intelligence has dropped this far. We solved this problem quite a long time ago…

Are people with Müllerian agenesis not women then? Your definition doesn't seem to match up with colloquial usage, even ignoring trans women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCllerian_agenesis

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#445

Post by chitowneats » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

makeworld wrote: post #434

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abigail Shrier's recent book Irreversible Damage explores this question. I highly recommend it.

As I mentioned in another comment: Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender…

There is severe hesitation to fund this research by the psychiatric and medical establishment.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#446

Post by yerwhat01010 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

jdjsksmdj wrote: post #437

ben_w wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.

[flagged]

> Go search for "sissy training" on PornHub.

I searched. I can't figure out what these videos are about from the titles/thumbnails, and I'll be damned if I'm actually going to watch these things. Can you summarize?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#447

Post by junon » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

originalvichy wrote: post #275

junon wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms. I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not…

>If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way. This is really not a good analogy. An identity-linked issue like this would be closer to someone not being included into a certain in-group. For example an African-American who grows up in a predominantly caucasian could be called "not black" or "not black enough" by…

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder (saying this in the most scientific way possible). It's not a cultural stigma.

So no, I disagree that it has any semblance to the "not black enough" argument.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#448

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

errantspark wrote: post #320

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? Yes. Male puberty confers lifelong physical advantages on the body in terms of muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity and bone density. That's why men dominate women physically in every sport, which is why women have their own special sporting catego…

I don't believe men dominate women in ultra-endurance racing. IIRC though the sample size is quite small it may be that extremely long distance racing actually favors women.

[deleted]

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#449

Post by pjc50 » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

adaml_623 wrote: post #367

pjc50 wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Gender critical" is the anti-trans movement. The reason you can't tell their true position is the usual one: they daren't say "we want to eradicate trans people" in public, so they take the "just asking questions" route. I feel that the trans community has largely been forced into defending "trans women are women" (TWAW), even if it has holes as a philosophical argument, because they need to fight the transphobic "t…

So has Gender critical been defined as a group in such a way that no-one will admit to being in it? Is it similar to TERF? I think you're correct in your second statement. This whole area seems very polarising. The edge case of women's sports is the obvious situation where a principle of 'Live and let live' doesn't work.

> Gender critical been defined as a group in such a way that no-one will admit to being in it?

No, that's what they call themselves. You can see plenty of people using that label on twitter.

Polarize_d_, in that people have gone out of their way to polarize it. The last major legal advance was in 2004, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Recognition_Act_2004 with broad support, and it's only in very recent years that this backlash has sprung up.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#450

Post by ladyattis » Wed, Jun 23, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

rocqua wrote: post #323

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

Perhaps I am way of base here. But it seems to me like MTF athletes simply should not be allowed in sports where testosterone would be considered doping (or some other criterion to determine whether having been biologically male is a significant advantage). My proposal would clearly suck for MTF athletes. They'd be forced to either drop from competitions, or compete in the men's league. An MTF athlete competing in a…

The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact, to get the benefits of secondary sex characteristics for trans women they often have to have LOWER testosterone and higher estrogen levels for cis women in their weight and age. This is done to overcome the masculinization they've gone through. Basically, to get the boobs you gotta carpet bomb the testes forever or snip snip.