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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

Among some populations it may be a social contagion: https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3 What other animals have a similar level of consciousness? You can‘t form the idea that you are “in the wrong body” unless that idea has been provided to you by your culture. You need linguistic and social support to even have the concept. EDIT: Oh, you may be interested in the phenomenon of what you might call “trans” non-human animals: indi…

Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#432
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said conspiracy. I said advantage. Height is a huge advantage in basketball. The average height of an NBA player is over 6’5”. Height is mostly genetic except for malnutrition. Different populations have different average heights. The optimal build for a weightlifter is to have short arms and legs and to have the two parts be of equal length. That is mostly genetic. Of course different population groups have diff…

> The point is that many other things have explanatory power as well and that choosing which categories to consider is ideological. Why have separate sports for sex? No need to complicate; if we didn't have sex segregated sports, for almost all sports (save for maybe open ocean swimming), we couldn't have any women competing at all[1]. In fact there are "battle of sexes" type exhibition matches that demonstrate the r…

I tried finding examples of other sports where women are roughly competitive with men at the top level: archery, shooting, curling, ultra-marathon, gymnastics, climbing.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#433
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

Some people have tried to study this phenomenon but have been shut down by accusations that such research would be transphobic. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/academics-ar...

What has been shut down specifically? That letter is very vague.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

Abigail Shrier's recent book Irreversible Damage explores this question. I highly recommend it.

As I mentioned in another comment:

Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreversible_Damage

If you have a peer-reviewed study, that would be much more worthwhile to look at.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#435

One possibility that could potentially work for certain sports, like weightlifting, where the competition is solely in terms of individual records, would be to do away with the existing division by weight and male/female and instead introduce a handicap model based on measured characteristics. For example, all players might be required to have blood testosterone levels recorded at regular intervals starting from a yo…

Makes sense for the Olympics or Worlds, but what about amateur competitions? High school wrestling leagues can't exactly start doing this stuff.

If you base it on trying to measure biological characteristics that we know (or think we know) affect performance, you are right--it would be impractical for all but leagues that the top athletes compete in.

If you made it based on past performance, though, it should be doable in even small amateur leagues.

That's how it works in chess. When you play tournament chess you get a rating based on your performances and the ratings of the established players you played.

Large tournaments use the "Swiss system". In round 1, you sort the players by rating, split the list in two, and the top rated player in the first list plays the top rated list in the second, and so on.

In subsequent rounds, you sort the players by results so far, split the list into separate lists for each score group, and then within each score group the top half by rating plays the bottom half.

Large tournaments typically have prizes for the top scores, but also "class" prizes. A class prize is for the top scores in certain rating ranges, say under 1800 or under 1200. A big tournament like the US Open might have a whole slew of class prizes, such as top score in under 1200, [1200, 1400), [1400, 1600), [1600, 1800), [1800, 2000).

There are women's chess tournaments but that is because much fewer women take up chess, and often women are uncomfortable if they are the only woman in a competition, especially at the scholastic level.

That environment can affect their performance due to "stereotype threat". When you are doing something in public that goes against a negative stereotype about your group you can feel a lot of pressure to avoid confirming the stereotype, and that extra pressure can actually make it harder for you to do your best. That in turn further discourages women from taking up tournament chess.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#436

I think sports categories should be chromosome strings. "XX division", "XY world record". "XXY 400 m finals", "XYY long jump trials", ... Gender identity doesn't factor into it at all; the words "man", "woman" should not be used. Problem solved; you don't get to wedge yourself into competition with XX persons if you're XY.

Sex chromosome variants aren't separate sexes. You're male, and develop a male body producing male gametes, if you have a Y chromosome: * X – Female * XX – Female * XXY – Male * XY – Male * XYY – Male * XXXY – Male https://colinwright.substack.com/p/sex-chromosome-variants-a...

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#437
post #251
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah but it doesn’t make your body exactly like someone with different chromosomes than you that lived with that hormone set their entire life through puberty etc, and with a different bone structure and musculature

I believe this is one reason why some trans people are very keen for their hormonal therapy to begin before puberty.

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a few examples: "Anyways, any woman dumb enough to participate in the farce that will be competing against HIM deserves to lose." "Women are getting screwed because of trans ideology. Mr. Hubbard is clearly a cheating male." "In the old days, abittoirs use to have a well trained cow that would calm the nervous cows on their way to be slaughtered. I often think of these women as those calming cows trying to placate…

Ah okay fair enough, I would consider those people assholes as well. Although I am against any sort of forced identification on internet forums simply because I would prefer people speak their minds completely openly, regardless of what I think of what they are saying. I don't care for pretense, which is what actually happens IRL, in my experience.

But that's exactly what I'm saying though(sorry if it hadn't come across that way) - the push for forced real name policies is stupid - the main stated goal of it was to improve the quality of discussion and accountability, yet it clearly does no such thing. HN is completely anonymous and yet has much higher standard for discussions compared to literally any other forum I know.

And yes, I would also like people to speak openly about their thoughs - despite my earlier comment, I would defend their right to say those things openly, just as much I would defend my right to call those things vile or stupid.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#439

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

When you segment based on age and sex you are dividing up people based on their starting conditions - people who were born in the same year, and with the same sex, compete to see who is the best. When you divide based on the attributes that matter for the sport, you are basically just pre-ranking everyone and bucketing them so you only compete against those who we predict will do as well as you. Which is fine for more casual levels of sport, but isn't particularly interesting to watch.

No one wants to watch a competition to see who is the "best of people we think are ranked 100-200" since it is an arbitrary grouping. They want to see people compete to be the best woman or man in the world.

Dividing based on weight makes sense for some sports since it is an added constraint that people compete to optimize their strength against. But dividing based on strength just moves the competition from the actual competition, into the ranking process.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Feel'. My confusion comes from the fact that these people were not born female and so can have no idea what it is to 'feel' like a woman any more than I can 'feel' like a wolf. This then reduces womanhood to a state of mind, rather than any physical and/or chemical criteria, which I think is wrong. Why should natural born women have their identity diluted? It also seemingly reinforces the 'two genders' claim by cate…

In today's language (in the US at least), gender is a state of mind, precisely because talking about the mental aspect of gender/sex is very useful both for talking about transgender people and for studying how mental gender identity affects people's lives. As for "feeling" a certain gender, I get it. What you say makes sense, but humans aren't creatures strictly operating by logical principles. Sometimes, what our b…

Thanks for your response; I was expecting to be on the receiving end of downvotes/abuse.

> you spend every day of your life fighting the nagging feeling that you don't actually identify with gender you're "supposed to" identify with

I have no problem with believing that some people aren't the gender they physically represent. But, in my mind, arriving to the conclusion that 'I don't identify as a male, therefore I must be female' isn't right.

> And why am I a woman? Because I'm a woman

Again, they don't actually know that they're a woman. They know they're not male, for sure, and I'm fully on board with that. But insisting that they're female... I'm not sure. Is 'trans woman' not sufficient?

Benjamin Boyce has a YT channel that deals with some of this stuff that I watch occasionally to try help understand.

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