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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#391

So how about a third class/sex? We have male competitions, female competitions, why can't we have transgender competitions? Seems to me to be the simplest, fairest solution, given that hormone treatments might give a person an unfair advantage that we're trying to keep out of male and female sports, but that are inherently impossible to avoid in transgender sports.

I'd guess that people who aren't clearly male/female would probably tend to be grouped in the more competitive category.

For example, say that an intersexed-athlete (not simply male nor female) plays two sports: one where males are seen as advantaged and another where females are seen as advantaged. Then, the intersexed-athlete would probably compete in the male-category in the male-advantaged sport while simultaneously being in the female-category in the female-advantaged sport.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#392

Let's consider getting rid of gendered sports entirely. Even women don't like women's sports as much as men's sports. Why would they? It's like watching the kids' league. Or like a bad B movie when you could be watching a Hollywood movie. You might say, well then women will have no chance of ever being involved in those sports at that elite level, and you'd be right. But 99% of men have no chance of being involved in…

> What I'd really like to see is some kind of team sport or game where there is a strong advantage in having a "mixed" team. Surely someone can think of a game that won't be entirely dominated by men? If that existed then we could choose the team sports with women in them over the 100% male individual sports. But ultimately the choice will come down to which one is the most interesting, impressive and exciting.

So far, there's no such game existed yet, even with non-physical sport like esport.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should FtM people, taking testosterone, compete with cis-women?

If those testosterone's are not a banned substance, then sure. Why not?

Testosterone is a banned substance because it is a performance-enhancing drug.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

1. is pretty close for ex: most brain functions can be called subjective, and therefore not that relevant. 2. is relatively a trend in how civilization has been moving. The cavemen bashed a skull that seemed unfamiliar or they didn't like, we don't we try to setup a legal system and judge a sense of justice. I don't think every subjective experience should be allowed to be used over other person's choices. I guess we would need something like "your right to swing your hand stops a feet/inch from my nose" kinda principle.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless rules are made to enforce division based on sex and not gender, then it's just a matter of time until transgender athletes are the only winners in Women's events. Be prepared to see a lot of dropouts/boycotts by various nations in the Olympics. Eastern nations are not going to stand by silently. Some will shrug and directly enlist straight men in Women's events.

The olympic requirements are already having completely female hormone levels for 2 years. In fact, the limit for testosterone is significantly lower than for cis women, being a significant disadvantage for trans athletes, which is why in all the decades trans athletes have been allowed, you haven't seen any. Cis women with higher levels of testosterone, e.g. caster semenya, are already dominating the olympics, having…

Muscle density isn't built to competitive Olympic levels in 2 years. Having a lifetime of male-level hormones and then 2 years of low testosterone is still an advantage, as we've seen in many events so far.

This is also a strategy that has been used for doping, where athletes in their teens get pumped full of steroids, then go clean for some years and are suddenly very competitive in the 'clean' divisions.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#396
Let's frame the problem like this:if we accept Hubbard as participant in the women field, we should accept also women to men transgenders in the male field(who wouldn't stand a chance of qualifying ever) therefore it is clear we need a transgender category if we don't want to disqualify an entire field of transgender athletes.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

If terminology is your hang up then how about BSA , birth sex assignment. Then it is only about biology and not about identity.

only if you ignore the brain and it's processes as not "biological phenomena"

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#398
post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

Except... gymnastics won't end up being dominated by a bunch of people like Simone Biles.

Female sports will continue to be dominated by biological males if we continue to let this happen.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

I recently learned that the Navajo historically recognized more than two genders. This article says at least 6 but initially I heard 4. It's not something I've looked into much so I can't really say. "In the Diné language, there are at least six genders: Asdzáán (woman), Hastiin (male), Náhleeh (feminine-man), Dilbaa (masculine-woman), Nádleeh Asdzaa (lesbian), ‘Nádleeh Hastii (gay man). All come from the Diné creati…

There's the fascinating debate in Anglo-Saxon archaeology around this, too.

Some "male" graves (buried with weapons, armour, etc) have female skeletons in them. And some "female" graves (pots, jewellery, broaches) have male skeletons in them. This is not disputed by anyone, the skeletal and DNA analysis is unequivocal.

But all the writing we have from the period only mentions standard sex/gender roles (all warriors are "he", all primary care givers are "she", there's no mention of homosexuality, etc).

However, all the written evidence we have is from christian sources, and as we know, christianity (especially catholic christianity) has been pretty pro-patriarchy since the start. So while there's no evidence for it, one explanation is that the original pagan Saxon culture had different ideas about gender and sexuality, but this got edited out by the monks transcribing the old pagan sources.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#400
post #288

Imagine a giant athlete the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak decides to transition and has to match a testosterone level to compete. Lol. It’s ridiculous.

It's truly an insane decision by the IoC and I'm sure the backlash will hurt the trans community. This is a privileged white male, the son of a billionaire (Dick Hubbard, founder of Hubbard foods) who didn't transition until they were 35. Prior to that they were a washed up male competitor who would never in their dreams make the Olympics. And now, they are displacing one of the best female weight lifters. No wonder…

This is pretty mean spirited. If "privileged white male" is going through hormone theory, then I don't think that's very privileged (privileged white male is an awful term) The technology here is still rudimentary, rich or not. This is not Altered Carbon.

And their Dad is not a billionaire, it's in the 10's of millions, 150 employees according to wiki and he's a cereal manufacturer and also a Mayor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Hubbard

Laurel Hubbard might be an awful person, but you haven't made the case for that.

I can't even see evidence Laurel campaigned for this, they just seem to be following the rules. In fact it seems they haven't campaigned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JYerP_Ysts

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