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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#321

Post by rocqua »

ivanbakel wrote: post #280
prox wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate male physiology giving her an unfair advantage. We don’t allow doping either. If there is a way to level it out, that might be a solution, if it’s possible.

>I think the core question is, does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? If so, it’s not really a competition, especially if that result derives from her innate ... physiology giving her an unfair advantage. But this is true of lots of sports. Most recently, Simone Biles was punished by scoring judges for a gymnastic move that only she is able to perform, due to her height and musculature. "Gene…

Are there any examples of this worry about "genetic freaks" in non-women categories? It seems much less relevant to me in a category where everyone can enter than one that is restricted to a subset to give that subset 'fair' competition.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#322

Post by sundvor »

a-and wrote: post #196
sundvor wrote: post #167

I understand that anabolic steroids give a life long advantage in terms of muscle memory. Anyone who's done some semi serious lifting and then gone on a long break to return will know that progress is much faster the Nth time around. This explains why those who have taken steroids will have a life long advantage: Eg https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190125084106.h... I also understand that the male pubert…

Fully agree with your second point. Your first point touches on why it's such an interesting and difficult problem to solve. 1. Country-wide doping systems that currently exist in weightlifting. Punishing an individual lifter does little to disincentivize doping at a larger scope. A country's sports organization can just take on the next Olympic hopeful (or buy another country's). Alternatively whole countries' parti…

Thanks, appreciated that information about doping. It sure is a tricky subject in weightlifting; someone actually relatively clean (ie doing their best to only take approved or at least non banned supplements) their entire life would likely be considered at a disadvantage?

I'll read up on your resources - and yes, different rules across regions would be a big one.

Personally I just take Creatine and WPI, but I'm only training for functional fitness as a desk bound software engineer. Still, it's a very interesting topic; I do know someone who competes at a national level, and the routines and regimes are punishing.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#323

Post by rocqua »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

Perhaps I am way of base here. But it seems to me like MTF athletes simply should not be allowed in sports where testosterone would be considered doping (or some other criterion to determine whether having been biologically male is a significant advantage).

My proposal would clearly suck for MTF athletes. They'd be forced to either drop from competitions, or compete in the men's league. An MTF athlete competing in a men's league is likely to experience disphoria. It will also probably attract people saying "Look they are still a man, they are even in the mens league!". Both of these would be very hard to handle for MTF athletes. Probably causing many of them to drop from professional competition.

I hope this would be addressed partially by not having a "mens league" but an "open league" and a "womens league".

But otherwise, I think this is acceptable fallout to keep athletic competition fair. Yes, this policy will harm MTF athletes, and that is simply unfair. But the alternate policy is even more unfair. It might not harm individual MTF athletes, but it harms the acceptance of trans people in wider society a lot. Moreover, it harms athletes in general a lot.

In the end, I feel the following harsh sentiment. If you are truly MTF, then transitioning is probably more important than keeping your profession. It really sucks to force people to give up their profession when they are already going through a tough time. But I don't see any other way.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#324

Post by sundvor »

xupybd wrote: post #265
uniqueid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

I think life time testosterone levels would help too. Hard to define and monitor but a huge performance impacted

On a related note:

One of the advantages of weightlifting (at least for a middle aged cisgendered male) is that it increases testosterone production.

Significantly lowered levels can have some really bad outcomes as one age, ie killing energy levels, libido, physical strength etc.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#325

Post by rocqua »

errantspark wrote: post #320
yerwhat01010 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? Yes. Male puberty confers lifelong physical advantages on the body in terms of muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity and bone density. That's why men dominate women physically in every sport, which is why women have their own special sporting catego…

I don't believe men dominate women in ultra-endurance racing. IIRC though the sample size is quite small it may be that extremely long distance racing actually favors women.

I think most ultra-endurance races tend to have an overall price where everyone competes in the same race.

I recall one race which had an overall price and a women's price. The same person won both and that caused slight kerfuffle.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#326

Post by rocqua »

acituan wrote: post #104
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

> The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.

What about people who cannot produce gametes? Or is that not a thing?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#327

Post by ohgodplsno »

Jcowell wrote: post #228
fruityrudy wrote: post #210

Imagine a giant athlete the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak decides to transition and has to match a testosterone level to compete. Lol. It’s ridiculous.

My question would be what would happen? Would he retain all of his strength or would the transition render him the strength we expect of a woman who also trained like he did. It seems weird to me that we say such things as if we definitely know the outcome. I must have missed a Science class where this was taught or maybe it’s coming sense? Is there even a paper study these results?

There absolutely is: being born a man gives you some physical advantages that are not just linked to testosterone.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3

Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed.

Additionally, women are naturally less muscilar than men.We're talking 50% less fiber surface, 30% less muscles in total, and even a difference in the type of fibers: significantly fewer type 2 fibers, which are the ones that give your muscles explosiveness. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#328

Post by xupybd »

sundvor wrote: post #324
xupybd wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think life time testosterone levels would help too. Hard to define and monitor but a huge performance impacted

On a related note: One of the advantages of weightlifting (at least for a middle aged cisgendered male) is that it increases testosterone production. Significantly lowered levels can have some really bad outcomes as one age, ie killing energy levels, libido, physical strength etc.

Yeah it really helps. I'd recommend heavy deadlifts to any middle aged male. It's a huge energy booster.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#329

Post by rocqua »

ALittleLight wrote: post #132
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #50

I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem . The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which…

In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? It is as if "I am not questioning your identity" is a magic spell that must be chanted prior to doing exactly that so you don't get in trouble…

> Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman.

Not quite. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete in the women's league. That is different from asserting she should not compete as a woman. She then continues to argue this is not because her identity is not female, but because of biological reasons.

This is coherent because the point of a Women's league (in weight-lifting at least) isn't to segregate women from men, but to give women a place to compete without being crippled by biologically determined dis-advantages.

Things get complicated because the reason for a Women's league existing, and the actual written rules around it do not quite line up. It might even be the case that for Hubbard to compete as women means she could not enter the men's league. That would then probably be a moral mistake in the rules.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#330

Post by hoseja »

errantspark wrote: post #320
yerwhat01010 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? Yes. Male puberty confers lifelong physical advantages on the body in terms of muscle mass, heart size, lung capacity and bone density. That's why men dominate women physically in every sport, which is why women have their own special sporting catego…

I don't believe men dominate women in ultra-endurance racing. IIRC though the sample size is quite small it may be that extremely long distance racing actually favors women.

It's always some obscure exception, as if that doesn't prove the rule.
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