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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#191

Post by morsch »

vore wrote: post #161
fumeux_fume wrote: post #135

The idea that an athletic competition--conferring a first, second and third place, holds any substantial meaning at all is completely absurd. All other controversy simply flows from this fact.

Unfortunately, as a society, we've allowed people to tie their livelihoods to it: people spend their lives training for competitions and the prestige of winning them can directly contribute to their livelihoods through income from deals with sponsors, etc.

As long as there's agreement that it's unfortunate, we can discuss ways to dismantle the system in a way that doesn't destroy the livelihoods of many people. But I'm afraid most people don't agree that it's unfortunate.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#192

Post by vmception »

Erwin wrote: post #179
vmception wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

basically what happens in online spaces is that regional separate evolution of trans terms clash for example, in American English, the trans community has centered on a separation between sex and gender In commonwealth English, that specific separation in the lexicon hasn't reached consensus even within the trans community, let alone in a broader colloquialism from people wanting to understand and people actively res…

Current UK situation seems to be that being "Gender Critical" is a protected belief, based on the ruling case of a case where a tax expert lost her job for tweeting about how men cannot just change into women: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_Forstater_v_Centre_for_Gl...

Yeah see this is a great example as I have no clue what anybody’s position is there upon a quick skim, and I’ve never even heard the term Gender Critical

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#193

Post by junon »

vore wrote: post #149
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is common to hear a transwoman claim (indeed, even occasionally here on HN) that anything other than recognizing them as equal to ciswomen is an act of violence and prejudice against them, and at worst, they utter some invective about “TERFs”. So, suggesting the recognition of a new gender is unlikely to satisfy at least those strident individuals.

From first principles, transwomen feel like they should be just as much of a woman born biologically female, but they just happened to be born biologically male. This dysphoria causes a great deal of angst and I don't think the benefits of othering them as any kind of second-class woman can outweigh that.

If I have clinical depression, saying "you're completely normal and do not have depression" doesn't make the depression go away or subside in any way.

Gender dysphoria is oftentimes treated via transitioning in some fashion. Having groupthink on online spaces doesn't alleviate symptoms.

I've never heard anyone except trans activists talking about the specifics of someone's trans-ness in an open setting. Certainly not something someone who's just trying to go about their day would even care about, let alone making a point that "hey by the way you're not biologically a woman, peace".

It's such a weird argument to me. Then again, I'm a dirty "transmedicalist" as labelled by the twitter trans community, so what do I know.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#194

Post by chitowneats »

exporectomy wrote: post #189
chitowneats wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no issue with how they choose to self identify. I accept trans-identifying individuals and I will use whichever pronouns they ask of me. What I have an issue with is this type of behavior where they turn things upside down without any care for others. In this case, they're stealing glory from and seriously hampering the careers of lifelong female athletes. Imagine lifting since you were a teenage girl, and som…

Maybe those natural females were never the best women and the trans are just taking their rightful place after having been excluded.

This ^ is exactly the type of zealotry I'm referring to.

Hubbard has been free to do olympic weightlifting her entire life. Against similarly bodied individuals (men).

I too am excluded from competing in women's weightlifting contests. That is absolutely for the best (though everyone we're talking about here can likely lift more than I can).

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#195

Post by CodeGlitch »

makeworld wrote: post #133
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

Taking hormone therapy dramatically changes your body, making using just your sex also problematic. It's a complex subject. Here's the best article I've found on it: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...

But it doesn't change your skeletal structure, or the size of your lungs. Both of which dramatically affect your performance.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#196

Post by a-and »

sundvor wrote: post #167

I understand that anabolic steroids give a life long advantage in terms of muscle memory. Anyone who's done some semi serious lifting and then gone on a long break to return will know that progress is much faster the Nth time around. This explains why those who have taken steroids will have a life long advantage: Eg https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190125084106.h... I also understand that the male pubert…

Fully agree with your second point. Your first point touches on why it's such an interesting and difficult problem to solve.

1. Country-wide doping systems that currently exist in weightlifting. Punishing an individual lifter does little to disincentivize doping at a larger scope. A country's sports organization can just take on the next Olympic hopeful (or buy another country's). Alternatively whole countries' participation can be banned, punishing clean athletes.

2. WADA testing is largely inconsistent across the world. You can take a look at the doping reports [here](https://www.iwf.net/anti-doping/statistics/) and compare e.g. Iranian athletes to others.

3. "Steroids" is a big bucket. Weightlifting even now has devolved into a race to design the best undetectable compound.

The IWF is already in trouble with the IOC for so many positive tests - I'm really curious to see how things develop and whether weightlifting ends up splitting into tested/untested federations like powerlifting.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#197

Post by nerdponx »

uniqueid wrote: post #184
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

I agree, but unintended consequences abound.

I wonder how this would apply in sports that don't typically have weight classes, like track & field. I imagine you'd start seeing athletes in pretty much every sport cutting weight like in boxing and wrestling, which I don't think is a healthy outcome.

Are we at a level of biological science yet to create reliable divisions/classes on anything more sophisticated? And what about non-professional sports in schools?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#198

Post by leephillips »

mssundaram wrote: post #183
vore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss t…

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

Among some populations it may be a social contagion: https://t.co/Bp5FcXDsg3

What other animals have a similar level of consciousness? You can‘t form the idea that you are “in the wrong body” unless that idea has been provided to you by your culture. You need linguistic and social support to even have the concept.

EDIT: Oh, you may be interested in the phenomenon of what you might call “trans” non-human animals: individuals who behave like those of the opposite sex. Apparently in some species their physical characteristics can even change, such as female lions that grow manes. But nobody is confused enough to say “trans lady lions are lady lions“; that confusion is reserved for humans. In mammals, the sex can not change. But it‘s an interesting phenomenon.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#199

Post by b0rsuk »

I don't have a big problem with people who "identify as" someone else. I have a big one with people who insist that *I* must call them in a particular way. It clashes with the idea that freedom of one person stops where freedom of another person starts. What about my right to call another person as I see them? This is invasive. I'm not telling them how to live - they are. This is *gaslighting* and promoting *taboos*.

Margaret Thatcher once said: "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't."

https://pbfcomics.com/comics/bear-boy/

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#200

Post by ryanobjc »

jp0d wrote: post #175
jp0d wrote: post #113

This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they ar…

If you'd asked me 10 years ago I probably would have said something disrespectful. I didn't know enough about trans-rights or lgbt rights. But over the years I've realised that they probably face a lot of injustice and indeed are marginalised in some societies. I've been working for a company that cares deeply about diversity and inclusion, which has helped me learn a lot. But, I still don't think it's fair for women…

> But, I still don't think it's fair for women that an individual who lived the prime of their life as a man, benefitting from all the testosterone and muscle mass

Are you.... sure about this? Like how sure are you? What do you think you know?

The human body changes surprisingly fast. Astronauts that stay in outer space for too long can't even walk when they return to earth. That "too long" is like... a year basically.

A "lifetime" of muscle mass will last for how long once someone starts taking androgen blockers then estrogen?

The reality is while we think of 'sex' as being some kind of chromosomal thing, that isn't what really separates the 'genders'. After all, apart from genitals, there is little external difference in babies. So it isn't exactly the XY/XX... of course one might say "but that happens during puberty", which is what exactly? The significant rise of sex-hormones. As the saying goes "if you can't make your own, store bought is fine" (regarding neuro-transmitters, sex hormones, etc).

So, are you SURE that an individual that "lived in the prime of their life as a man" is just as strong as they once were once they have spent years on hormone therapy? If you're sure, why are you sure? "I don't think it's fair" ... but why? Is is fair to trans athletes?

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