Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#401

Post by kwhitefoot » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #339

kqr wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I think what passes for appropriately staffed in the West is actually understaffed. What's called optimal staffing in the West is just at capacity, which is a nice way of saying "with no spare capacity." Of course, with Japan being the land of just-in-time, one could argue that spare capacity is bad -- but that's an oversimplification. Necessary spare capacity is good. What's bad is not being able to addres…

No it's not just that. The minute we got off the plane in Tokyo we were met by a greeter pointing people to the escalator. Not that you could miss it, that was the only exit. In the city you could see people guarding potholes. Bus stations (not particularly busy) would have a couple men at each station that would help arrange the passenger luggage: something usually helped by the driver in the West. Once we took a ni…

Why is it unsustainable? The money they take home gets spent thus supporting other people.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#402

Post by ddnb » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

dopidopHN wrote: post #224

nkssy wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah if a boss said I couldn't have 4 weeks off per year I'd probably tell them they're functionally incompetant. Its always interesting to see how other people live.

Good for you! I will cash a few years more of that sweat US money and go back retire at home. Where every gas station attendant has 5 weeks of PTO.

Don't forget to live your life now as well. All fine and dandy to save for 'later', but if you keep going until you burn out you won't be enjoying your later that much. That or if you get run over by a bus tomorrow it was all for nothing.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#403

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

speedgoose wrote: post #221

nickff wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much were you willing to sacrifice in salary in exchange for additional vacation? Was it a net-positive deal for your counter party (employer)? I ask because I hear this kind of thing all the time who want to make the same money, for less time at work.

Most people need spare time to be happy, productive, not burn out. And as a company or society, you don't want to encourage people to work too hard for money because most people are stupid and will actually work too hard for money, and not be happy, become less productive, and burnout. That's how it works in Europe. It's common that a boss will ask an employee to work less, because the amount of time they work is not…

Forcing employees to take a holiday is often done purely out of the company's self-interest, as accrued leave is a liability on the books.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#404

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #363

andyferris wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: why does it “cost” the employer so much to have you on leave? I heard this argument in North America but not here in Australia. I mean, small businesses might require critical people at critical times, but generally in larger orgs this shouldn’t be too hard.

Say your employer makes 20k a week of the produce of your work. This means you having a single, unpaid week off will directly cost your employer 20k. Even if you would willingly take a (from your perspective) pretty hefty pay cut of 4k for that week off, the employer would still be down 16k compared to before. This is the weird and intuitively wrong stuff that happens, when employers make more through their employees…

Is your employer going to write down a loss of $20k on the books when you take a week off work? Probably not, because opportunity cost isn't actually an expense.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#405

Post by kwhitefoot » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #357

SilverRed wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can see. These front desk jobs exist as theft/crime deterrent and to handle edge cases. Sure you could fully automate fuel stations but who is going to call the police when kids start spray painting the windows unless you have someone sitting at a desk watching cctv all day. And who is going to deal with customers who are trying to report something is wrong with a pump. These jobs have already been automa…

I kinda feel some countries care a lot about full employment. How they can afford it is beyond me though.

If we can afford to keep people alive surely we can arrange for them to do something useful too. Unless we intend to condemn large numbers of people to chronic poverty we have to pay more than starvation wages even to those who do nothing.

It seems to me that the question to be answered is: how can we afford to not have full employment?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#406

Post by hderms » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

innocenat wrote: post #343

MarkSweep wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some notably low-staffed places in Japan are Yoshinoya and Sukiyaki (beef bowel fast food, often 24/7). It seems there usually just one person working there at a time.

You probably went during off time? It's usually more than 1 during busy time. (And it's Sukiya, not Sukiyaki) And it's also probably not for wanting just 1 staff -- it's probably because no one want to work at those place.

I went once at about 3-4PM and also came away feeling like it was a bit understaffed. One worker and about 8 people in there eating. I didn't have to wait a crazy amount of time so maybe it's fine though, gyudon doesn't take a long time to prepare if some ingredients are prepped

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#407

Post by toomanybeersies » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

yupper32 wrote: post #296

ryanSrich wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We offer equity comp, health stipend, and equipment stipend for anyone contracted on a 20 hour per week minimum. Sick/vacation days are harder because we pay for whatever I get an invoice for. Since we don’t track what people do on a day by day basis (I often don’t even know if someone is working that day until I reach out to them or slack, or vice versa), there’s nothing stopping them for billing me for extra hours.…

> I often don’t even know if someone is working that day until I reach out to them or slack If you don't know if they're working, don't fucking slack them. How about you check their calendar or send an email. Slack is not for asynchronous communication. It's amazing how high and mighty people can be and then they ping people for non-emergencies while they're on vacation.

Why don't you just not check your Slack messages when you're on holiday?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#408

Post by toomuchtodo » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #241

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/15/spain-to-launc... (Spain to launch trial of four-day working week) 120% debt to GDP For fun, the US is at 127%. Equity, debt, fiat, just rows in a database. If it doesn’t work out, what’s the worst that happens? We go back to few more hours a week? But if it does work, it’s time work evolves further.

Say you loan someone some money, and they just… don’t pay it back. Well, who cares right? After all, it’s just a number in your bank account.

Nation state finances are not the same as household finances.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#409

Post by Kalleklovn » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

formatjam wrote: post #201

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

meanwhile, China is doing 996 - 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Obviously people hated it. But it is happening and no wonder China tech is catching up fast / winning in some areas already.

It is normal for Chinese to sleep/take a nap by the desk during the day.. Pretty sure they are catching up because of other reasons than being most of their waking hours at work..

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#410

Post by gdubs » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

There was another thread on 4 day workweeks, and I’ll reiterate what I wrote there: people had the same concerns when society shifted to a 40 hour workweek and productive actually went up. Fewer injuries and illness, etc.

1: “The Rise and Fall of American Growth”