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State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

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Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#321

Post by alok-g »

curiousmindz wrote: post #14

This issue is way overblown here on HN. In day-to-day usage, I have rarely been annoyed by these "inconsistencies". The best example to illustrate this article is: Installing a driver with the Windows XP layer. That's probably something that will only happen to people installing very old hardware with drivers from over 10 years ago. I consider that a backward compatibility win: It is great that it even works in Windo…

I personally also don't have a problem.

Think however about people who are new to computers, whether adults or kids growing. They find it all confusing.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#322

Post by spr93 »

wayneftw wrote: post #256
rbanffy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use Apple because their OS is a Unix AND their hardware is nicely built and well integrated with the OS. I use Linux because it’s a way to run a good Unix-like OS on non-Apple hardware. The overwhelming majority of people who use Windows (or macOS) is because their computer came with it. As long as it mostly works, people don’t care about which OS they are using.

The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s. If businesses had never used Windows, nobody else would have and computers wouldn't come pre-installed with it. Personally, I use all of them for different purposes. I like Windows because it's more comp…

You must not have been around for the 80s and 90s' "desktop wars." Microsoft did everything they could to undermine innovation and they didn't help businesses, they locked them into inferior technology that cost more and undermined productivity. The Microsoft you grew up with was not the Microsoft of Gates and Ballmer. Those were dark years.

That Microsoft created new APIs, runtimes, and frameworks not for technical reasons but in order to lock customers in or disadvantage competitors. That's a big reason why Windows is an unmanageable mess of inconsistent interfaces and DLLs--they were short-term tactics, not well considered approaches.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#323

Post by spr93 »

ksec wrote: post #77
jorvi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if Apple deserves to be in that list, UI-wise at least. Yes, they do break backwards compatibility in many many other ways, but you could put a technical layperson who is used to Mac OS 9 and put them on macOS 11.4 (for those unfamiliar, Apple's OS has been at 10.x for about 20 years) and they would still reasonably be able to find their way around. One element especially (the global menu bar) is why I g…

Yes. There are so many things Mac got it right for parents or grand parent users. Global Menu Bar and Single Mouse Button. But generally speaking for them it was still a hassle and hurt to use a computer . iPad with Home Button was so much easier. No support calls for years . It was the computing devices that works. But now they moved on to Smartphone meant iPad get way less usage. Which also means some of those desi…

So true. Today I must explain to my mother that she needs to press a flat picture (not a button) of three horizontal bars in order to pull up a command list. The list won't be sorted by category, but by a designer or developer's perception of which commands are most used.

In the mid 90s, I could walk my 80-something-year-old grandfather through WordPerfect with ease: "File does basic file operations, like save or print. Edit is for editing, like copying and pasting."

Menu bars work because they're a great feature-discovery tool when done right--with verbs that describe the commands, and with functions grouped by category.

"Modern" UIs don't. Try to explain it: "So, the lines are called a hamburger menu, they're supposed to look like a list of commands. And you can press it, even though it's completely flat. Then you need read the list until you find the command you want."

The Mac GUI's great innovation was combining intuitive visual cues with an consistent, unintrusive, and always-on system for feature discovery (the menu bar).

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#324

Post by criley2 »

andrew_ wrote: post #255
criley2 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the price of the absolute cheapest MacOS running computer (Mac Mini, with a monitor) one can get basically 2 entire Windows computers. For the cost of the average computer running MacOS, one could buy a TV, a console, a desktop Windows computer, and a laptop. Or whatever it may be. ($1500 on an iMac could be $400 console, $500 TV, $500 computer. Or whatever your break down is. For the lower middle class and worki…

I don't understand how your views on cost-value are related to my views on the user interface and experience.

Really? It seems very obvious. This is a discussion of how "UX is why Microsoft is losing market share", which is what you replied to.

I'm reminding some tone-deaf wealthy users that COST is the #1 factor behind OS usage, and the rest is basically irrelevant window dressing except to the upper class.

Is what it is, but you'll struggle to find a more privledged and clueless group of commenters than here. Part of the charm, I suppose.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#325

Post by criley2 »

manigandham wrote: post #259
criley2 wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the price of the absolute cheapest MacOS running computer (Mac Mini, with a monitor) one can get basically 2 entire Windows computers. For the cost of the average computer running MacOS, one could buy a TV, a console, a desktop Windows computer, and a laptop. Or whatever it may be. ($1500 on an iMac could be $400 console, $500 TV, $500 computer. Or whatever your break down is. For the lower middle class and worki…

Cost is not the same as value. Apple hardware routinely runs better, lasts longer, and has longer software support. This is reflected in the incredible demand and higher resale values. This actually helps makes new devices more affordable as the cost is amortized over a longer and more useful lifespan, while the secondary market serves others very well.

Incredible demand? Are you referring to their stable ~15% market share? And decades of uninspiring market performances? The company which didn't experience its meteoric success and growth until after the computer, with the smartphone?

Interesting. I figured the people here are completely ignoring maybe half of all users, but you seem to be ignoring about 85%!

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#327

Post by fomine3 »

jorvi wrote: post #48
neelc wrote: post #36

Disclaimer: I work at Microsoft, but not on Windows (and I deal with a SaaS at MSFT). I am a FreeBSD committer and help maintain FreeBSD's GNOME packages and (very recently) the graphics drivers. The reason why Windows is full of UI inconsistencies is (largely) because of one thing: backwards compatibility. While backwards compatibility has it's perks, it also means having lots of old code in Windows that can't be to…

I don't know if Apple deserves to be in that list, UI-wise at least. Yes, they do break backwards compatibility in many many other ways, but you could put a technical layperson who is used to Mac OS 9 and put them on macOS 11.4 (for those unfamiliar, Apple's OS has been at 10.x for about 20 years) and they would still reasonably be able to find their way around. One element especially (the global menu bar) is why I g…

I argue that global menu bar is bad UI for big and multiple monitor era. It's fine for laptop but not for desktop. It's also not friendly to touch panel since it relies on what app is foreground.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#328

Post by ajbetteridge »

rhodozelia wrote: post #297
alisonkisk wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That 11 year old Air can't run a recent OS that supports modern web browsers including security patches.

For most users who are emailing, reading some web forum, social media, and maybe office that matters very little. Even fully up to date there is always another zero day, so for individuals doing nothing of particular importance the best bet is good up to date backups of the important files and when your software tools are working well to help you get whatever it is you do done, don’t change them, and don’t update the…

But, not surprisingly, "For most users who are emailing, reading some web forum, social media, and maybe office that matters very little." don't understand or know how to do rolling backups or operate a VM, so keeping their OS up to date is the best option. Denying them that, regardless of how little they use the internet, is reckless at best.

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#329

Post by wayneftw »

spr93 wrote: post #322
wayneftw wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s. If businesses had never used Windows, nobody else would have and computers wouldn't come pre-installed with it. Personally, I use all of them for different purposes. I like Windows because it's more comp…

You must not have been around for the 80s and 90s' "desktop wars." Microsoft did everything they could to undermine innovation and they didn't help businesses, they locked them into inferior technology that cost more and undermined productivity. The Microsoft you grew up with was not the Microsoft of Gates and Ballmer. Those were dark years. That Microsoft created new APIs, runtimes, and frameworks not for technical…

> You must not have been around...

No, you.

> they didn't help businesses, they locked them into inferior technology that cost more and undermined productivity.

In order to lock people in to something you have to have something of value to offer... so, your argument defeats itself.

> That's a big reason why Windows is an unmanageable mess of inconsistent interfaces and DLLs...blah blah blah

Pfffft. Yeah it's so unmanageable that every single IT department on earth is running Windows all day every day. Even my personal PCs are running perfectly without so much as a hiccup. What a mess!

Re: State of the Windows: How many layers of UI inconsistencies are in Windows 10?

#330

Post by wayneftw »

rbanffy wrote: post #291
wayneftw wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s. If businesses had never used Windows, nobody else would have and computers wouldn't come pre-installed with it. Personally, I use all of them for different purposes. I like Windows because it's more comp…

> The overwhelming majority of people on Windows are there because Microsoft bent over backwards to give businesses what they needed so that they could beat out Apple and IBM to win the desktop wars of the 80s and 90s. That’s one case of “it came with the computer”. But Microsoft was really clever at giving all the functionality companies want for their corporate issue computers. In the mid-2000’s very few companies…

> That’s one case of “it came with the computer”.

No, that's the reason why it comes with the computer in the first place. You don't think that PC manufacturers just decided for everybody do you?

Microsoft won for a one reason - they have products that solve problems better than anything else.

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