Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split • Hacker News Board

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#231

Post by Animats » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

vincnetas wrote: post #198

yakireev wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the contract only + no meetings + no HR (no culture bullshit, no “get to know people” social events) So, gig economy. Or, at best, hourly wage at Amazon warehouse, but for developers. I heard those warehouses are super extra no-bullshit efficient.

If you would treat devs like warehouse workers right now,all devs would run away. I mean force them to be 100% effective all the 8 hours and track every move they make. On the other hand allow warehouse workers flexible schedule and decent pay so they could live decent life by puting in 20 hours a week (even while measuring every move they make) and i bet there would be devs who would convert to warehouse workers.

If you would treat devs like warehouse workers right now,all devs would run away. I mean force them to be 100% effective all the 8 hours and track every move they make.

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Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#232

Post by e12e » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Tine's Heimdal factory in Norway did do 30 hour work week for a while - with good results in efficiency (and employee happiness). It was unfortunately scrapped due to cost concerns (workers kept same pay as for 37.5h work week).

Its not clear if the change back to "normal" week was entirely rational - there were other suggestions to make the cited target of 80M NOK/year savings.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#233

Post by misterremote » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

> Takuya Hoshino, an economist at the Dai-ichi Life Research Institute, says simply introducing a four-day workweek may not necessarily encourage employees to use their time off in a way that benefits their careers or contributes to the economy.

The idea shouldn't be how this benefits their career and contributes to the economy, but how the individual can live a more balanced and healthy life.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#234

Post by monsieurbanana » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

rogerkirkness wrote: post #59

monsieurbanana wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it more as "no one is having 40 hours per week of productive work continuously ". Even in your example, being productive for 60+ hours is possible, but for how long? There might be extreme (extreme!) outliers, but I think it's fair to say that at some point you will increase your productivity by putting in less hours.

I can work 55 hours a week in perpetuity as a founder, with the exception of four off grid, week long vacations a year. Even two weeks over 60 hours (e.g. fundraising across timezones) and I rapidly lose it.

But is your overall productivity higher with 55 hours than it would be with less hours?

It's the kind of question where I wouldn't really believe your answer, unless you've actually tried to experiment yourself where is the cutoff (for your specific situation) between hours / productivity.

Not because I think you would answer in bad faith, but because it's a really complex question. What if working less hours over multiple years would let you pursue some hobby, turn you more sociable and thus a better leader/CEO?

Or maybe it would make you just very slightly better at decision making. You would have less time to manage your company, maybe relying more on others, but in exchange you would have more energy for the really crucial decisions. Or enough energy for extending that 2-weeks international crowdfunding effort into a 3-weeks.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#235

Post by franciscop » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:55 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

I fully agree with your comment overall, but as someone who lives in Japan I'd like to point out that specifically "people who fill in the holes in roads" is a running joke in Japan since small street constructions always seem way over-staffed.

It's amazing because they do finish a lot faster than in western countries, but you can definitely remove 20% of the people in street-level construction and would see little difference. An example: they hire 2 people on every sidewalk just to tell people to continue walking the way they are walking and make sure they don't fall into a pit while looking at their phones[1].

From what I've learned, this specific job is normally filled by people who have already retired but don't have enough to live, so they are paid peanuts (I believe they might also be paid a bit extra by gvmt to go back to work, but I'm not sure I understood this point properly). They have started to be replaced by "robots" though [2].

Edit: in general everything in Japan seems overstaffed compared to the western counterparts, not just road construction. I believe this is how they can maintain very low levels of unemployment here, but I don't yet know how the incentives work to make it possible.

[1] The guys with the blue shirt, notice one on each side https://c8.alamy.com/comp/HBJ2K1/japanese-people-in-construc...

[2] https://japangasm.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/rwintro-swing0...

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#236

Post by Arcanum-XIII » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:57 AM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #199

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

It is an open secret that people who are productive only 2/3 of the time in 40 hours/week would be productive only 2/3 of the time in 32 hours/week as well.

That's patently untrue: most of my colleague working 3 or 4 days a week are more focused their days in.

The invert is true though: a task will evolve to take the time alloted to it, I see that regularly with "unconstrained" project running amok. Those with fixed time are way more efficient and finish with a minimum of overtime.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#237

Post by emidln » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

Another way of looking at it is efficiency hasn't changed and need stays constant, you need 20% more people to do the same work. This is an interesting way of affecting mass employment.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#238

Post by rainonmoon » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #199

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

It is an open secret that people who are productive only 2/3 of the time in 40 hours/week would be productive only 2/3 of the time in 32 hours/week as well.

I hear what you're saying, but anecdotally I just cut my days back and find myself a lot more energised and engaged when actually at work. I haven't really compared my degree of output yet, but I can at least say I'm a lot more emotionally invested in the results of my work and my job satisfaction is higher. One's mileage may vary.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#239

Post by egman_ekki » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 5:58 AM UTC

jstummbillig wrote: post #225

dopidopHN wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I would be willing to reduce my yearly salary for 2 or 3 weeks of extra time. Should not be that hard. It’s worth more than the proportional time I would take off. It’s very valuable to me. Like 5k / week would be a good price tag. I have no debt and more stuff than I need. Now let’s me enjoy life while I still can ( and keep working on that job that I actually enjoy ) I’m not sure to understand about the n…

The crux here is, of course, that one week of your time is a lot more valuable than 5k to your employer if they pay you 3.7k per week, and probably a lot more than you would be willing to part with or find reasonable (think 20k+ a week) It's a pretty infuriating setup. From the employers perspective, the amount of money you lose by having someone not work is so obscene, so quickly, that you have to fight your monkey…

Even if their time was 5 times as valuable to the company as their pay, it seems very unfair to pay someone 3.7k per week, but require 20k from them if they want to take a week off? That basically means that if you took 3 months sabbatical, and worked the rest of the year, you would actually pay your employer 100k for working those 9 months...

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#240

Post by kortilla » Mon, Jun 21, 2021, 6:01 AM UTC

legulere wrote: post #228

onion2k wrote: post #213

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone. In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers…

People are still going to work more efficient when they work 32 instead of 40 hours in many jobs as fatigue sets in at some point.

No, there are jobs where you do rote things on demand or at particular intervals with no fatigue at 40 hours per week.

Examples from my own employment experience:

- front desk clerk at a hotel

- fuel pump operator

Both of these are pretty dull work that doesn’t exhaust you at all at the 40 hour work week. Most of the time is spent idle and the time spent working doesn’t require much going on upstairs.