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Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

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Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#211

Post by refactor_master »

formatjam wrote: post #201
paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

meanwhile, China is doing 996 - 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Obviously people hated it. But it is happening and no wonder China tech is catching up fast / winning in some areas already.

From my experience with Chinese working culture, half of that time is most definitely spent not working.

I’d bet the factors are much more political in nature than productivity on the individual level.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#212

Post by ksec »

alephnan wrote: post #148
ksec wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well surely that is the only reason why they are pushing for it. And yet most of the discussions seems to be missing the point. ( Discussing Work hours without Japanese in the context ) I am not entirely sure if this will help though. Birth Rate in Japan, ( or in any nation ) is a complex issues. Both cultural and economics. Why would anyone want a baby when they can barely afford themselves decent standard of living…

> when they can barely afford themselves decent standard of living Rent and food even in Tokyo is much cheaper than even medium sized cities in the states. People might not be able to afford a luxurious lifestyle in Japan, and economists standard of living models may tell you otherwise, but the standard of living for a typical person in Japan is high

Which is why I said ( Standard being different from person to person ).

Once it becomes a norm, people want more.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#213

Post by onion2k »

I think a lot of the replies in the thread so far have focused on tech (understandably, this is HN after all) but that's missing something obvious - the 4 day week would apply to everyone.

In tech it's very likely someone going from 5 days to 4 days could still achieve the same amount of actual work. As other commenters have said, many tech workers don't do productive work all the time they're present. Retail workers, factory workers, people who fill in the holes in roads, telephone support people, etc aren't contending with pointless meetings and busy work though. They can't do 40 hours of work in 32 hours by removing some of the hours they're not really working. What they do doesn't compress like that.

Consequently looking at this from the context of tech workers is far less interesting. The Japanese government isn't saying "Let's get rid of pointless meetings and busy work!" In tech removing the pointless nonsense isn't actually reducing the amount of real work people do. Instead, Japan is saying "Our country is wealthy enough and advanced enough that our people can actually do less work." That's fascinating.

If you see this as "removing the wasteful time spent on things that aren't useful like meetinga" then you've missed the point. It is that, but it's much, much more than that too.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#214

Post by jasonzemos »

ryanSrich wrote: post #177
yakireev wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the contract only + no meetings + no HR (no culture bullshit, no “get to know people” social events) So, gig economy. Or, at best, hourly wage at Amazon warehouse, but for developers. I heard those warehouses are super extra no-bullshit efficient.

It’s certainly not perfect, but I genuinely think it’s much better than being an FTE anywhere else. Of course I’m biased. I mentioned benefits in another post, so I wouldn’t say it’s gig economy. What other environment could give a developer $100+/hr, ability to make their own schedule, and essentially all legal protections to work on side projects, work for other companies, etc. at the same time? Is it for everyone?…

You've forgotten the core tenet of every engineering discipline is the master-apprentice relationship. The reason why what you describe is really the gig economy is because you've turned contractors into autodidacts to cut costs. You're not only expecting engineers to work for you, you're expecting them to learn their craft without capitalizing that yourself. Someone has to pay for that too; it probably won't be your other contractors -- otherwise you'd be something like a real company again.

Your success in this direction to turn software development into some kind of cattle feedlot is only a mirage. Let me make it clear in economic terms: you're up a few chips at the casino, for now, because the market allows you to be. In the long run it's not sustainable, and won't yield any major feats of engineering with any level of competence.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#215

Post by prawn »

dopidopHN wrote: post #192
nickff wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much were you willing to sacrifice in salary in exchange for additional vacation? Was it a net-positive deal for your counter party (employer)? I ask because I hear this kind of thing all the time who want to make the same money, for less time at work.

Of course I would be willing to reduce my yearly salary for 2 or 3 weeks of extra time. Should not be that hard. It’s worth more than the proportional time I would take off. It’s very valuable to me. Like 5k / week would be a good price tag. I have no debt and more stuff than I need. Now let’s me enjoy life while I still can ( and keep working on that job that I actually enjoy ) I’m not sure to understand about the n…

This blows my mind. Throwing your prime (or prime-st remaining years) at an office. Can you put your foot down and take unpaid leave whether they like it or not? Come up with an excuse if you have to. They will always try to push you to follow their line but will you regret that later in life?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#216

Post by bsder »

paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

> It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week.

Be grateful for your privilege. Most employees aren't tech.

The workers at companies that schlep things around are working a real, non-stop 8 hours. This is why Amazon warehouse jobs are so shitty.

Teachers are pretty much non-stop as well. This is why so many of them have medical issues with their bladders.

The vast majority of workers are in positions that really do put in 40 hours of hard work a week--and they don't get paid anywhere near as much as tech.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#217

Post by yskchu »

ggm wrote: post #37
paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

Australia calling: 37.5hr week please. It be law.

One of the things I love most about Australia (New South Wales at least) is the mandatory 2 months long service leave after 10 years of service

https://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/employers/nsw-emp...

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#218

Post by dopidopHN »

nickff wrote: post #193
dopidopHN wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course I would be willing to reduce my yearly salary for 2 or 3 weeks of extra time. Should not be that hard. It’s worth more than the proportional time I would take off. It’s very valuable to me. Like 5k / week would be a good price tag. I have no debt and more stuff than I need. Now let’s me enjoy life while I still can ( and keep working on that job that I actually enjoy ) I’m not sure to understand about the n…

By ‘net positive’ I mean willing to take a cut larger than is directly proportional to the reduction in hours worked. The reality is that reducing each person’s annual work will increase costs for the company overall, as it needs to pay additional overhead and benefits, which are related to employee count, rather than hours worked. I think that everyone is a bit wary of setting difficult precedents in employment situ…

I see : yes, I’m compensated roughly $3000 / week. I don’t know how much I do cost per week but probably around $4000 ? Idk.

As I stated it’s easily worth 5k for me. ( 7 days, 5 days would be $3500 )

That négociation did not go well. I got 2 extra day off and was told to stop making noise.

Oh. well.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#219

Post by anitil »

malux85 wrote: post #150
anitil wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds marvelous! I'm looking at a job at the moment that is mostly WFH and working out during the day is something I'm looking forward to most of all.

This has changed me - I WFH, but every 2 days I take a 2 hour walk, I walk about 7.5KM to the beach and back and while I’m tired at the end of the walk, it’s hugely invigorating and I often end up coding until well after midnight on my own projects with all the extra energy I have. Have lost quite a lot of weight too … and it’s only been a couple of months. Go for it! Can’t recommend it enough.

Living close enough to the beach to be able to walk is one of my life goals!

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#220

Post by nkssy »

skhr0680 wrote: post #184

The social contract in Japan was that you’d give your life to your employer in exchange for a fair wage and stable employment until you retired. Neither of those things are true now. Wages are low and companies either ignore their legal obligations or hire people as contractors, who have less rights than full time “employees”. Now, many people, especially women* and young people are finding that it’s possible to run…

I think it says a lot about Japanese workplace pay if a small business at 3-4 days per week can outperform it. Not that I doubt it in any way: I've just started my own sideline and I'm already at 25% of my job income yet only putting in 5 hours of effort to do so.
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