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Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

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Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#171

Post by ekianjo »

kumarvvr wrote: post #66
ekianjo wrote: post #40

Why does the government need to be involved if employers actually get better productivity in the first place? Let employers experiment by themselves and see what works best. Another typical example of top-to-bottom leadership in Japan.

If the government doesn't make laws that define broad principles, capitalism will eat you alive. Employers are greedy and evil. Their focus is profit maximization. Not employee well being. Given the chance, do you really think employers will even give vacation days to employees? No way. They will want you to work 24/7 if the govt. is ok with it.

> If the government doesn't make laws that define broad principles, capitalism will eat you alive.

Has it? Levels of life of the whole world are on the rise for the past 20 years at least - if you want to make that argument the current data does not support that at all.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#172

Post by dopidopHN »

mjcohen wrote: post #158
ryanSrich wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did this at my new company. One 30 minute scheduled standup. That’s the only meeting we have all week. Of course people are free to jump on a video call to work through stuff, but scheduled meetings are generally discouraged, and to date we only have the one. Since everyone is contract, we’re seeing an average of about 26 hours per week. It’s by far the most productive team I’ve ever been on or have built. We ship…

How about benefits such as health insurance, vacation days, sick days?

I miss vacation so much.

I just fly home from the US. And … I still have to work instead of just spending time with my parents that I haven’t seen in years.

I earn more than 200k. ( not west coast ) it’s a decent salary right? Why can’t I have vacation, too? I asked and putted and asked again…

All that will accomplish one thing: one day in the next 2 years I will wake up, look at my bank account. And quit. To have actual free time.

I told that to my boss in those term, we have a decent relationship. But … he gave me some HR bullshit.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#173

Post by ekianjo »

kumarvvr wrote: post #83
throw123123123 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you think the salary comes from in the beginning?

At the beginning of civilized society? From the government itself. Then it slowly evolves into capital flow to people closely connected to the government (aristocrats, royalty, etc) and then to common people through banks. You seem to imply that for any entrepreneurship, you need to have no worker protections at all. But that is simply false.

> At the beginning of civilized society? From the government itself.

You seem to have no understanding that powerful states is a VERY recent invention in History.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#174

Post by ekianjo »

culopatin wrote: post #64
ekianjo wrote: post #40

Why does the government need to be involved if employers actually get better productivity in the first place? Let employers experiment by themselves and see what works best. Another typical example of top-to-bottom leadership in Japan.

Perhaps because without the intervention, they weren’t doing it.

Then you probably need to ask why.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#175

Post by MereInterest »

etempleton wrote: post #112
monsieurbanana wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read it more as "no one is having 40 hours per week of productive work continuously ". Even in your example, being productive for 60+ hours is possible, but for how long? There might be extreme (extreme!) outliers, but I think it's fair to say that at some point you will increase your productivity by putting in less hours.

In the marketing agency world 50-60 hour weeks are the norm and 70 hour weeks occur once a month or so. It isn’t really sustainable. Most people burn out and leave the agency world within three years. Those that stay often make work their life or have a way where they can set their own schedules, which is usually because they have reached marketing executive level and the work becomes different. It is a very unhealth…

How much of that is working time, and how much of it is sitting in a room not being productive? Every productivity study I've read finds that per-week productivity drops off tremendously with that level of overwork.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#176

Post by axaxs »

echelon wrote: post #9
eric4smith wrote: post #4

Big mistake. It was the 5-6 day week that built modern Japan. A lot of people are talking about cutting back on days everywhere. But now, more than ever, is when we need to be working harder to get back to where we were before. (Of course, my attitude to these things is shaped by being a business owner -- not an employee. So take with that point of view)

Only an owner would feel that way. Without significant equity, what's the point? The worker gets nothing except less life and more stress. The owner sucks up all the benefit.

I find the whole balance rather interesting.

The worker thinks 'without my work, the owner would have nothing!'

The owner thinks 'without my business, the worker would have nothing.'

The truth is, both are right, to different degrees depending on the circumstances. A good owner should make workers feel they have a stake, whether by salary or ownership. A good worker should make the owner believe they are making a good decision by paying them.

I have no answer to the debate in the title, I just find this little sub-argument fascinating.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#177

Post by ryanSrich »

yakireev wrote: post #168
ryanSrich wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did this at my new company. One 30 minute scheduled standup. That’s the only meeting we have all week. Of course people are free to jump on a video call to work through stuff, but scheduled meetings are generally discouraged, and to date we only have the one. Since everyone is contract, we’re seeing an average of about 26 hours per week. It’s by far the most productive team I’ve ever been on or have built. We ship…

> I think the contract only + no meetings + no HR (no culture bullshit, no “get to know people” social events) So, gig economy. Or, at best, hourly wage at Amazon warehouse, but for developers. I heard those warehouses are super extra no-bullshit efficient.

It’s certainly not perfect, but I genuinely think it’s much better than being an FTE anywhere else. Of course I’m biased.

I mentioned benefits in another post, so I wouldn’t say it’s gig economy.

What other environment could give a developer $100+/hr, ability to make their own schedule, and essentially all legal protections to work on side projects, work for other companies, etc. at the same time?

Is it for everyone? No. But we’ve had more quality devs interested than we can employ at this point, so I’d say it’s attractive to a good portion of the market.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#178

Post by chadcmulligan »

ryanSrich wrote: post #137
paxys wrote: post #17

It's an open secret at least in the tech world that absolutely no one is putting in a productive 40 hours of work a week. This was true well before the pandemic and is more pronounced than ever now. Everyone needs to be "present" for 8 hours a day 5 days a week, but spends their time in pointless meetings, preparing documents and powerpoints that no one will read, faux social/teambuilding events, hour long lunches, g…

We did this at my new company. One 30 minute scheduled standup. That’s the only meeting we have all week. Of course people are free to jump on a video call to work through stuff, but scheduled meetings are generally discouraged, and to date we only have the one. Since everyone is contract, we’re seeing an average of about 26 hours per week. It’s by far the most productive team I’ve ever been on or have built. We ship…

So not an hourly contract? but a per deliverable contract? How do you figure out what's a deliverable in the time - if thats what you're doing.

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#179

Post by bathtub365 »

dopidopHN wrote: post #172
mjcohen wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about benefits such as health insurance, vacation days, sick days?

I miss vacation so much. I just fly home from the US. And … I still have to work instead of just spending time with my parents that I haven’t seen in years. I earn more than 200k. ( not west coast ) it’s a decent salary right? Why can’t I have vacation, too? I asked and putted and asked again… All that will accomplish one thing: one day in the next 2 years I will wake up, look at my bank account. And quit. To have ac…

If your job is getting in the way of your life goals, why don’t you find one that doesn’t?

Re: Japan's government plans to encourage 4-day workweek, but experts split

#180

Post by nickff »

dopidopHN wrote: post #172
mjcohen wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about benefits such as health insurance, vacation days, sick days?

I miss vacation so much. I just fly home from the US. And … I still have to work instead of just spending time with my parents that I haven’t seen in years. I earn more than 200k. ( not west coast ) it’s a decent salary right? Why can’t I have vacation, too? I asked and putted and asked again… All that will accomplish one thing: one day in the next 2 years I will wake up, look at my bank account. And quit. To have ac…

How much were you willing to sacrifice in salary in exchange for additional vacation? Was it a net-positive deal for your counter party (employer)? I ask because I hear this kind of thing all the time who want to make the same money, for less time at work.
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