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Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

adamcadre.ac

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Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#711

Post by pdonis »

pjerem wrote: post #546
pdonis wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? You want the brutal truth? Yes, that's exactly the solution. Want an education? Learn to behave in class. And note that this is the only workable answer even in public school systems that aren't insolvent. No amount of money can educate a kid who refuses to be educated.

> Learn to behave in class. Who’s the job to teach those kids how to behave in class ? Their parents ? And what do you do if their parents don’t care (which is the common case with those kids) ? What do you do if the student has undiagnosed mental illness ? Entire generations of misbehaved children were in fact suffering ADHD. How do you manage a misbehaving children that is bullied every single morning when he comes…

> Who’s the job to teach those kids how to behave in class ? Their parents ?

Yes.

> what do you do if their parents don’t care

Then other family members should pitch in. Or other adults in the kid's life should pitch in. Or, if you believe the government can exercise such power with good judgment (I personally don't), you could have the parents' rights terminated and put the kids up for adoption.

What you can't do is ask schools to do the job, because that isn't what schools are for. Schools are not supposed to be rehabilitation centers for kids who can't be educated because they have bad parents. They're supposed to be places where kids who can be educated, are educated. Trying to make them into rehabilitation centers just ruins the education of all the other kids who can be educated.

> Not educating a kid is ruining its life

I entirely agree. But that doesn't change the fact that a kid who refuses to behave in class cannot be educated. Even if it's not the kid's fault, that's still the fact.

Also, if kids who can't be educated are put in schools, now you don't just have them not being educated, you have all the kids not being educated because of the constant disruptions. How is that an improvement?

[Edit: I see you mentioned specialized schools elsewhere in the thread. I'll respond to that point there.]

> just sentence those students to jail for life already

I didn't do that; the kids' parents did, by making them unable to be educated. So why aren't you all on fire to hold the parents accountable? Why are you going after me, who had nothing to do with it?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#712

Post by pdonis »

pjerem wrote: post #672
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone has to be there for that kid to say 'shut up and study'. Failing that, disruptive student is a drag on the rest. I am sympathetic to the thought process behind it but the end results are hard to argue with.

I agree. But if their parents are not able to say « shut up and study », it should be the role of the public power to say it, even if it means transferring them into specialized schools, but letting them aside of the road should never be an acceptable option, because it will hurt them and it hurts the society (by making up future criminals and spreading wrong values)

> if their parents are not able to say « shut up and study », it should be the role of the public power to say it, even if it means transferring them into specialized schools

Who pays for the specialized schools? If it's we, the taxpayers, then we have a right to expect that those schools do their jobs. Do they? Do you have any specific references you can give?

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#713

Post by zbentley »

bargle0 wrote: post #643
torben-friis wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think viewing it as an exclusive choice is harmful. Schools need resources for both kinds of students, and if they have to choose who gets the attention they are simply underfunded.

Some of these failing school systems (Baltimore, MD & Prince George’s County, MD) have some of the highest budgets per pupil in the country. The problem isn’t money.

I'd be interested in how those budgets are broken down. Are those schools spending the money on finding the best teachers, counselors, mentors, etc. for their struggling students? Or are they spending it in more questionable areas?

That's a genuinely curious question. I haven't researched any specifics about those schools or how they use their money.

It's possible for a vicious cycle to develop between waste/corruption in a school system and poor academic performance, wherein additional money doesn't help improve outcomes. That doesn't mean that withholding resources is the solution; rather, it means that a more fundamental restructuring than American municipal governments may be comfortable with is in order.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#714

Post by awillen »

hn8788 wrote: post #626
nefitty wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP mentioned not “showing up”, not “putting in effort”, not doing homework and disruptiveness as indications that a child is a loser and not worth the resources it would take to make them productive adults. All those things are either signs of a difficult home environment or a learning disability. I haven’t read all the replies yet but I’m surprised at the lack of reactions to OP classifying some children as losers b…

> All those things are either signs of a difficult home environment or a learning disability. That's not true, some kids are just shitheads and don't feel like listening to anyone or doing what they're told. Personal responsibility has to come into play at some point, you can't just blame every problem on external factors.

This right here is the thing that nobody wants to say but is just true.

I had some good friends in high school (a large, below-average public school in CA) who were solidly middle class or better, had supportive parents, and were just shitheads when it came to education. They were disruptive in class, didn't do homework and just generally didn't care.

I'm all for giving kids who are struggling the benefit of the doubt and trying to help them, but if they don't want that help, at some point you have to weigh the cost of trying to force it on them against the cost of wasting the time of the students who are actually there to learn.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#715

Post by awillen »

candiodari wrote: post #658
throwaway210222 wrote: post #648

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0% should be wasted on the incorrigible. And yes, they exist.

Even the incorrigible will perform (much) better given 1-on-1 instruction. Less kids per teacher yields better results. The problem is that performance is exponential. That same 1-on-1 instruction will take a well performing kid to "surgeon". It will take the incorrigible ... maybe ... to only quit school at 10th grade. Which does directly translate to money for the school these days. What teachers/schools also effec…

Incorrigible literally means they cannot be helped, and the fact is there are kids for whom that is accurate. Giving them one on one instruction doesn't help, because they genuinely do not care. It does take up the time of teachers and burn them out, though, so they're less able to help the kids who are struggling but actually want help.

It's important to distinguish kids who just do not care at all from kids who are struggling, but it's also important to recognize that the former really do exist.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#716

Post by duped »

chmod600 wrote: post #709
duped wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're only in contention if we use the same measures for both, which is the root problem imo. In the United States our schools are more than places to expose children to literature, mathematics, and civics. It's a crucial social service and one with massive reach - if you want to affect change for the children and youth of America, schools are the place to go. The contrary is also true. When we don't effectively us…

It feels like people just aren't in agreement on the goals of school. And without agreement on the goals, it's going to be hard to succeed. As far as I can tell, in most of the world and for a long time, school has been a place for academic education. Those that could not be educated for whatever reason were dismissed. The idea that school should be a general social service for children seems popular among politician…

It's not an idea, it's reality. Schools are state run childcare and child rearing facilities in the United States. Academics are one of their activities.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#717

Post by alisonkisk »

chmod600 wrote: post #709
duped wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're only in contention if we use the same measures for both, which is the root problem imo. In the United States our schools are more than places to expose children to literature, mathematics, and civics. It's a crucial social service and one with massive reach - if you want to affect change for the children and youth of America, schools are the place to go. The contrary is also true. When we don't effectively us…

It feels like people just aren't in agreement on the goals of school. And without agreement on the goals, it's going to be hard to succeed. As far as I can tell, in most of the world and for a long time, school has been a place for academic education. Those that could not be educated for whatever reason were dismissed. The idea that school should be a general social service for children seems popular among politician…

Teachers don't like teachers being social services. They are right. That doesn't mean they are opposed to schools providing social services.

Families getting fed at school like getting fed. They aren't opposed to eating.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#718

Post by alisonkisk »

bargle0 wrote: post #643
torben-friis wrote: post #617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think viewing it as an exclusive choice is harmful. Schools need resources for both kinds of students, and if they have to choose who gets the attention they are simply underfunded.

Some of these failing school systems (Baltimore, MD & Prince George’s County, MD) have some of the highest budgets per pupil in the country. The problem isn’t money.

Highest budgets still aren't very high though. It's anchored low.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#719

Post by alisonkisk »

austincheney wrote: post #629
hef19898 wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the effort in takes to turn those kids into someone worthwhile Hell, you know you talk about human beings here, not some production ressource, right? The number of posts in this thread along the very same line, why bother with all those loosers at all if the bright ones could become a brain surgeon, is mind boggling. And IMHO hints at the cause of a lot of problems wr have in our society right now. Let me guess, yo…

A productive education system should dedicate resources to students equally with voluntary options for students who perform outside the norm. That means not disproportionately dedicating resources to students who fail aside from tutoring outside class. Some students just deserve to fail. It is better find that out early instead of lying to children that everything is great and kicking the can down the road to the sho…

So what should we do? throw children in the steet to die?

Quality foster homes are in extreme low suppply.

Children need care, and schools are whar we have. We need more therapists and parental substitutes, not fewer.

Dedicating resources equally has never been how government works in any area. If that's how government works, why have government at all? Just let people handle themselves.

Re: Life as a public school teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area in 2021

#720

Post by SwanRonson »

mindvirus wrote: post #64

One of the most radical beliefs I have is we should get rid of private schools, because it lets the people most capable of forcing change to opt out of an increasingly broken system, and so it doesn't get fixed. Of course I say this as I seriously consider sending my kids to a private school because of articles like this.

The people most capable of changing schools are the boardmembers and well funded unions. Private schools are simply the best alternative right now.

If you ban private schools, people will “group homeschool”. If you ban homeschooling, parents can pack cigarettes in their kid’s lunch sack until they are sent to continuation school where attendance isn’t required. Then the child is free to attend a “group tutoring academy”.

The solution is to make public education easier to reform by the members of the community.

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