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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#351

Post by vishwajeetv »

rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

Yes. One of the first thing I do when I set up a new Mac for myself is to move the bottom dock to the right side. Then the vertical space feels much more comfortable. This is applicable for both 15 inch and 13 inch macbook pros.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#352

Post by vishwajeetv »

bobbyi_settv wrote: post #344
shinycode wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I CMD+R every time and I guess for the amount of time people reload it’s not costly to learn it …

If I CMD+R on Hacker News, it reloads the page. If I do it on outlook.office.com, it starts drafting a reply to the email I have selected. Reload button does the same thing everywhere.

Yes, I wish webapps didn't put unnecessary keyboard shortcuts (or disable them by default)

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#353

Post by m463 »

zamadatix wrote: post #252
logbiscuitswave wrote: post #248

> It seems as if the people in the design team are all working exclusively on 32-inch Apple XDR Pro Displays. Makes me think of the complaints in video game text over the past few years and how it had become so small as to be nearly unreadable on normal TVs at normal viewing distances. The natural assumption here is that the game devs were doing all their work inches away from large fancy monitors not thinking of the…

The majority of these are better explained as "PC game ported to console". The same problem has long existed in reverse, console game ported to PC with enormous UI. There are a vanishingly small number of games that actually do this properly - a scalable UI that has some good default assumption for the platform it is currently on. Of course games rarely make significantly more money because the text is perfectly size…

I think there are lots of "porting" artifacts.

Like the "attract" screen when playing on a console which previews the game in a loop. (guess it came from arcade games, or maybe like DVD menu screens)

No need for that with a PC game - you're launching it manually, why add a "click to continue"?

I am amazed by those reaaaaallly wide displays - developers in the 1990's might have predicted 16:9, but 32:9??

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#354

Post by mikepurvis »

salamandersauce wrote: post #296
zamadatix wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of these are better explained as "PC game ported to console". The same problem has long existed in reverse, console game ported to PC with enormous UI. There are a vanishingly small number of games that actually do this properly - a scalable UI that has some good default assumption for the platform it is currently on. Of course games rarely make significantly more money because the text is perfectly size…

Nah. Console exclusives have had this problem for a while too. It was really dreadful on 360 where some devs assumed everybody played on HDTVs despite the console supposed to be SD friendly as well. Some text was literally unreadable in Mass Effect on my 20" CRT TV at ANY distance and was just barely readable on the 20" 480p LCD I was able to upgrade to a little later.

I played the 360 version of Braid on standard definition, and much of the text was unreadable.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#355

Post by zapzupnz »

shinycode wrote: post #331
zapzupnz wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In usability heuristics, that's called an accelerator. We would normally call it a shortcut. Whatever you call it, the point is it's an alternative to doing it in a more accessible way, not THE way.

I understand that, maybe they’ve done studies on how often people reload a page and made a decision based on numbers. After 20 years of browsing the web, at least for me, THE way became the shortcut and I never click on that (now useless) button. I can understand why they pushed it a click away, maybe numbers/studies back this up, maybe not. Personally I like having some buttons on the toolbar but I think I prefer th…

> After 20 years of browsing the web, at least for me, THE way became the shortcut and I never click on that

Again, that’s an accelerator. That’s for advanced use. So you’re an advanced user, good on you. Things are not designed just for advanced users.

> I can understand why they pushed it a click away, maybe numbers/studies back this up

No studies would back up making an interface less discoverable, thus less intuitive for new users, and also increasing cognitive load by requiring users to remember where something is rather than it just being there. ‘…’ and hamburger menus have always been poor substitutes for well-designed navigation hierarchies.

Someone actually ran the new tabs against Jakob Nielsen’s usability heuristics, respected in the industry for 27 years: https://twitter.com/feetsnz/status/1403849426683138053

The results were not good.

There are no numbers on the planet that could justify lowering usability. Apple themselves gave a WWDC session on how minimalism != usability. Of course, they can have a minimalist interface; that should never come at the expense of usability. They don’t eat their own dog food.

> Anyway when we play games we never count clicks right?

What do games have to do with a web browser?

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#356

Post by skydhash »

elliekelly wrote: post #101
Someone wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“but do not work in reality with real data and real users, those that open 35 tabs” That is close to stating that those that open fewer than 35 tabs aren’t real users and, further between the lines, that those people can be ignored. However I think, but don’t have data to confirm it, that they should be catered for and that “those that open 35 tabs” are a vocal minority.

> However I think, but don’t have data to confirm it, that they should be catered for and that “those that open 35 tabs” are a vocal minority. This is the first time I’ve ever even considered the possibility that someone is capable of using a browser with only one or a few tabs open at a time. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure they exist, but having a million tabs open is so ingrained in how I consume information on the i…

I only use a few open tabs (3 on my mbp and 4 on my ipad). I only open tab with a specific goal in mind and close it as soon as I’m done.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#358

Post by systoll »

tayistay wrote: post #50

Call me crazy, but I’d prefer the tabs as a big stack on the left side.

My first impression when they opened the sidebar was that that's what we were going to get.

The only thing really missing are disclosure triangles: https://imgur.com/a/6AkHI7d

A sidebar like that would serve tab-hoarders better than either the new or old tab bars, while coexisting with the new UI.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#359

Post by isignal »

yxhuvud wrote: post #145
rubyist5eva wrote: post #74

I vehemently disagree that vertical space used is negligible. Due to standard aspect ratios, the vertical space of the display is at a premium. 1920*1080 means you have 840 less vertical pixels than horizontal - it makes a lot of sense to me to try to reclaim some of that space for actual content instead of widgets.

Which is why it makes it so strange that no browser designers seem to get that the way to go is to stack tabs in a vertical list instead of horizontally. It would use more space but the space is in less demand so it wouldn't matter anyhow. So until the browser designers get a clue I will be stuck with Firefox and the Treestyle tabs plugin which is the least horrible solution for people that use a lot of tabs.

Microsoft edge has the option for vertical tabs, at least on Windows.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#360

Post by [deleted] »

rpastuszak wrote: post #59

Am I the only person who likes this change? Normally, I’d have 4-5 tabs that I keep switching between fairly often and then 20-xx most of the time useless, de facto bookmarks. I use a keyboard shortcut with fuzzy find to pick the right one. Reclaiming the address bar space to cram more tabs on the screen is a marginal gain, at least in my case.

[deleted]
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