Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps • Hacker News Board

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#251

Post by jessaustin » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:10 AM UTC

bitL wrote: post #193

jessaustin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...most of our planet feels like a hellhole... Donnie, is that you?

Did you even read what I wrote or was this just a cheap reaction from minimal pattern matching? One could describe state of hellhole as something to avoid and help others to escape it/change it. In your case you went with the "prevent anyone from there to reach my blessed state" interpretation, more consistent with the Donnie.

If you're really worried about people in other nations, you should start voting and protesting against all our stupid wars, sanctions, CIA operations, assassinations, etc. that harm people in other nations. Left to their own devices, free from USA predations, they would mostly be fine. I mean, they might not have iPhones, but most humans throughout history also have not had iPhones.

If you don't want your communication to be compared to that of the crudest politician in recent memory, you shouldn't communicate like he does.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

#252

Post by thelettere » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

brian_cunnie wrote: post #169

bjornsing wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I look back on it as one of the most valuable experiences in my life, not because there was any validity to the program but because it just confronted me with a lot of intense challenges at a young age that really developed my critical thinking and mindset at a young age. What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger. Problem is, it does “kill”* some people. (*) Sometimes literally, but probably more often figuratively.

I asked a psychologist (Dr. Judith Bernstein) if it's true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, and she answered unequivocally, "Trauma never makes you stronger." In a similar vein, with respect to "there are no atheists in foxholes", A three-tour-of-duty-in-Vietnam captain in the US Army (Harry McMenamin) said, "I was an atheist when I was in Vietnam, and I was in a lot of foxholes. There are atheists in f…

1. That's an argument from authority.

2. It's called post-traumatic growth, and there's an emerging mass of research on the subject.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by thelettere » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:36 AM UTC

brian_cunnie wrote: post #185

woofie11 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychologists mostly mirror the cultural values they're raised in. A lot of historical figures contradict the prevailing narrative.

> A lot of historical figures contradict the prevailing narrative [that trauma never makes you stronger]. I'd argue that the key word here is "trauma"; I think _adversity_ can make you stronger (more disciplined, and more focused), but I think that Dr. Bernstein is using the word "trauma" in its technical, medical, sense, i.e. "Psychological trauma is caused by an adverse experience, or series of experiences, that re…

That's a silly and highly unscientific definition that there is no way of demonstrating outside of "just so stories". Oh, someone had an experience and afterwards have symptoms - it must have been trauma.

There is large heterogeneity in the reaction of individuals to the sane exact experience, and sometimes what initially appears damaging ends up doing the opposite.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by mensetmanusman » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

yarcob wrote: post #242

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My statement on the feminization of society doesn't come from trauma. Global testosterone levels have been dropping for decades[1]. You can see it in old pictures: men were less fat, more competitive, and happier. Rates of sex and relationships among men and young boys have dropped precipitously. Speaking anecdotally, I feel most fulfilled when I embrace my masculine side and focus it on positive pursuits. Competitio…

> Productive masculine behavior is shamed nowadays Can you list some examples for that? It just doesn't match my experience. When people complain about masculine behavior, it's never the productive kind.

Jumping at the opportunity to lead and fighting (figuratively) to spar with the instructor first seems like behavior that some would find heroic and others would find unfair. (note that boys that behave this way in elementary school are mostly advised to take medication to calm down and behave like their female classmates).

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by thelettere » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:38 AM UTC

Igelau wrote: post #247

rogerkirkness wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post traumatic growth begs to differ.

The heartbreaking suicide rate among veterans begs to differ with your begging to differ.

Because some people react badly means everyone does? Stellar logic there mate.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by thelettere » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:45 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #154

bregma wrote: post #144

In Canada our government ran a program like this for all indigenous people for over a century, the goal of which was to "take the Indian out of the child". The children would be taken, often forcefully, and maybe allowed home for a visit one a year maybe not. They were beaten if they spoke their own language or indulged in their own culture. Often abused, sometimes killed. The goal was total cultural annihilation, an…

That seems to a common thread. Homes for young mothers, and their children, in Ireland. Orphanages in Germany. All the same all run by Christians ignoring love and care for the sake of some higher moral purpose.

Maybe it's because Christians are often the only folks who give a fuck? At least the largest group that does, so there's way more chances for some of them to be damaging.

I've been in a ton of shitty situations - on the street, ect - and christians as a group are way more reliably kind than any other group - particularly compared to anything run by the state.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by Izkata » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 1:58 AM UTC

torginus wrote: post #176

waterhouse wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reaction to these kinds of things (see also: the abuse of the Battle School students in Ender's Game ) is to think: (1) Perhaps it was the best way to teach certain things; but (2) I don't think the people who do such things usually rule out all the gentler methods first. It sounds like the "challenges" weren't necessarily intended to teach you what you learned, and you just happened to have a mind and mindset tha…

I think Ender's Game is the most compassionate protest against this kind of thinking - it is a thought experiment that demonstrates that with the right environment, even the most intelligent can be taught to use their skills in an utilitarian and amoral way - the book ends with Ender becoming the worst mass murderer in the history of the human race, despite representing the moral middle ground between his monstrous b…

> that demonstrates that with the right environment, even the most intelligent can be taught to use their skills in an utilitarian and amoral way - the book ends with Ender becoming the worst mass murderer in the history of the human race, despite representing the moral middle ground between his monstrous brother and his saintly sister.

Uh, I remember it as Ender having been tricked into it. He thought he was still doing simulations to prove his tactical ability, with how the scenarios kept getting more difficult, and did things he never would have done if he knew it was real.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by saganus » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 2:42 AM UTC

ear7h wrote: post #11

If anyone's interested in a first hand account of this type of thing there's good webcomic: https://elan.school/ I haven't checked in a bit but I think he's still releasing new chapters.

I can't believe I just read the entire thing from start to finish.

There are truly sick people doing truly sick things out there.

Thanks for posting this.

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #9

The "troubled teens industry" definitely has a lot of weird stuff going on. Some of the institutions are are bad-faith operations that were always scams (or worse); some were well-intentioned but were managed in a way that produced abuses nonetheless. Maybe a few actually did a good job helping out troubled kids, but it does not seem to be the norm. This is perhaps a place where internet culture has been somehow ahea…

[deleted]

Re: Troubled teens left traumatised by tough love camps

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Post by gregmac » Sun, Jun 20, 2021, 5:40 AM UTC

dannyw wrote: post #56

https://elan.school/ is a deep and artistic comic from a survivor of the infamous Elan School. It really gives you an impression of what these places are actually like.

I spent the last couple hours reading this. It is heart-wrenching and infuriating. It is like the Stanford prison experiment on steroids, but with kids. My gut reaction is everyone involved, and everyone who knew even a single thing about this - including judges, police, social workers, government employees and of course staff - should be in prison. Unfortunately the reality is likely that no one is punished, or it is so meaningless (like fining a multi-millionaire $10k) that it's pointless.