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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#201

Post by oivey »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #24
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

It's fairly common because it's commonly true; people don't like the changes for good reasons. Actual innovations in design are fine, but too often changes to user interfaces are arbitrary or are a response to the latest fad or some bright idea marketing or management cooked up. There is a strong argument for user interface stability. People don't just learn user interfaces, they seep into people's unconscious and mu…

I think the role of the aesthetic of a product is a bit under appreciated. If Safari was exactly as functional but still looked like Netscape navigator, it would negatively impact people’s opinion of the browser.

It’s just like the idea that you first eat with your eyes. For example, eggs with yellow yolks and orange yolks taste the same in blinded tests, but when people can see the eggs they usually go for the orange ones. Periodic UI design updates are needed so that people don’t associate a dated GUI with a dated product.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#202

Post by giuliomagnifico »

Hmmm this time I don’t agree with Riccardo. The new interface to me looks better, I’m testing it and I like it, there are only things that I don’t like:

1) the “unified color” in the menubar is terrible, really. You must disable the overlay tab/menubar coloring because this is the only big mess.

2) you have to make 2 taps in order to open the reading list, because you can’t “pin” it but when you open the sidebar you have to choose anytime if you want to see the RL or bookmarks. And this is a bit annoying. Workaround is to use a shortcut (like alt-R to open and close the RL and you can see it straight without two taps)

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#203

Post by sonofhans »

flohofwoe wrote: post #168
jakelazaroff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where's the scientific research and white papers going along with the Safari UI changes which clearly justify point by point why every single change makes sense, all backed by user studies? Are you being hyperbolic, or is this your actual position? That’s a ridiculously high bar that most organizations could not muster (and there’s no way Apple would release that stuff publicly anyway). “Emotional bullshit” is so n…

I'm dead serious. Almost every piece of software (and hardware) in a computer is driven by incremental improvements backed by research. Operating system kernels, file systems, databases, 3D-APIs, etc... there are tons of publications, white papers, discussions, all happening in public how those components are improved over the decades. There are dead ends from time to time, but those fail, and those failures are also…

As a UX designer & executive for 30 years, I’ll respond.

I agree that UX/UI is sometimes swayed more by fashion than empirical goals in service of the user. E.g., Jony Ive’s sad obsession with flat (featureless) design in iOS 7 is something we are still paying a price for.

However, the majority of UX research these days goes into things that are explicitly not in service of the user. Facebook doesn’t want you to be happy, they want you to keep using their product. Pay-to-play games don’t want you to have a good life, they want to squeeze micro-transactions from you at every opportunity.

Creating and propagating these manipulative dark patterns is a huge amount of leading-edge UX these days. It works. We know how to manipulate people towards goals that are antithetical to their well-being. The tech industry as a whole makes billions of dollars a day doing exactly this thing.

So yes, the research exists. UX continues to get much better. Just not in service of goals that you (or I, frankly) embrace.

This isn’t the fault of UX as a discipline or UX designers generally. Just like a coder intentionally optimizing a ratio of negative to positive stories to keep you fearful and scrolling, UX designers are driven by the same constraints — the product direction of their parent organizations.

Should UX designers individually, or as a discipline, rise up in revolt? Exactly as much, or as little, as programmers should. We’re all in the same boat. We can choose to serve the manipulators or not. Trouble is, there’s a fuckton of money in this manipulation, and you don’t have to spend much time here on HN to see how motivating that is, and the extent to which individuals will hold their noses and do what they’re told, as long as they’re motivated richly enough.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#204

Post by irrational »

dkjaudyeqooe wrote: post #24
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

It's fairly common because it's commonly true; people don't like the changes for good reasons. Actual innovations in design are fine, but too often changes to user interfaces are arbitrary or are a response to the latest fad or some bright idea marketing or management cooked up. There is a strong argument for user interface stability. People don't just learn user interfaces, they seep into people's unconscious and mu…

This. I work on a website where a new ui was rolled out every 2 years? Why? We (the developers) finally figured out it was because it gave the business people work to do that was more interesting than what they were really supposed to be doing. They got to go to all these catered meetings with 3rd party design consultants. They got to report to their higher ups that they were doing all this very important work. And every 2 years they could roll out the new ui to great fanfare while patting each other on the backs. It had absolutely nothing to do with improving the experience for our customers.

The worst part was, often functionality that was well loved was scraped because there wasn’t time to work it into this redesign. It turned out they would do that on purpose so people would complain so they could go to their higher ups with complaints in hand to justify budget money for a new round of ui design work. Rinse repeat.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#205

Post by luffapi »

sudosysgen wrote: post #171
setpatchaddress wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of thing is absolutely not new since the “Jobs era.” Early Mac OS X had exactly these criticisms leveled at it, for years. Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushed_metal_(interface)

Isn't Mac OS X solidly in the Jobs era?

Yes, it’s basically NeXT and is 100% a Jobs thing. The parent is correct that it’s had major ux issues since day 1 though. Interestingly they also mixed in terrible OS 9 ux (cough Finder, cough .DS_STORE).

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#206

Post by AlexandrB »

chadlavi wrote: post #78

I don't mind it on macOS because of keyboard shortcuts, but I desperately want my refresh and share buttons back in the iOS version of Safari. Pull down to refresh is great if you're already at the top of the page, but when you're at the bottom you have to open a menu just to refresh the page? Overall though I think the new look is fine, and the author is being a real disagreeable crank about the inevitable merging o…

> inevitable merging of iOS/macOS aesthetics

Also known as: "The day I dump macOS for Windows." I feel it coming. One thing that's kept me from getting an M1 Mac is that I'd have to run Big Sur. Given that Apple is continuing in this dumb direction my 2015 MacBook Pro running Mojave might, indeed, be the last Mac I ever own.

It's too bad too. With the M1 macs they had finally fixed the keyboards.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#207

Post by luffapi »

AbrahamParangi wrote: post #140
defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

Apple has increasingly delivered “looks good, feels bad” design since the Jobs era, and I suspect this is organizationally endemic.

Apple has always been like that with the exception of the Apple IIe.

Lately things have been taking even more of a nose dive though. Have you ever used Apple Music? There is no excuse for that product to be as bad as it is. It’s probably the worst mainstream consumer app in the market.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#208

Post by AlexandrB »

sbuk wrote: post #179
minxomat wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes iOS where refreshing a page now requires you to menu dive instead of having an always accessible button up top

Tap the top of the screen and Safari jumps to the top of the page. Pull down to refresh.

What if I don't want to lose my spot in the page by scrolling to the top[1]? This is a straight up UI regression. Just because there are workarounds doesn't mean it's not shit.

Edit:

[1] For example if I want to load new comments in a HN thread I'm reading.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#209

Post by mavhc »

sqqqqrly wrote: post #175
jhelphenstine wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

S/UI/clothing; your argument suggests the move to add color to fabric doesn’t make sense because it is simply fashion and has aught to do with the interface presented by a shirt. I think the parent comment nails it on subjectivity; the form of a thing is as much a part as its function. The luxury goods industry attests as much.

Poor analogy. A better one for clothing would be to remove the button and zipper from pants for a cleaner look.

Elastic does work much better, also suspenders are 10x better than belts

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#210

Post by DangitBobby »

jimbokun wrote: post #200
sqqqqrly wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor analogy. A better one for clothing would be to remove the button and zipper from pants for a cleaner look.

So modern UI design is spandex?

It's removing all buttoned and zippered pants from your store one year and replacing them with spandex one year, then coming back in 5 years and removing all spandex in favor of buttons and zippers.
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