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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

morrick.me

31–40 of 374 posts

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#31

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

> People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in considering the changes Thoughts maybe, but did they ask users what they wanted? Did they run usability studies to verify that these changes make sense? I can't imagine that they did. Certain UI changes in macOS, Windows, etc. are so obviously bad (and are eventually changed) that no matter how much they thought about it, they didn't care to ch…

Every user thinks they're the aggregate "users", though. That their personal opinion and take is universal.

For instance the address bar on here is a canonical truth and is the linchpin of the experience. See how every time a browser touches it (e.g. Chrome truncating the address) is met with mobs of the angry. Many users -- including even "power" users -- seldom interact with the address bar. Nor is it verification of anything much. It simply isn't that important anymore.

Another comment mentions that the reload button is two clicks away, which is a fair point but that everyone who actually uses reload (generally developers -- zero web apps should ever require the user to hit reload) use a keyboard shortcut.

Eh.

"Certain UI changes in macOS, Windows, etc. are so obviously bad (and are eventually changed)"

True. At the same time, every UI change of anything ever has yielded a firestorm of criticism and pushback. And more times than not the new design was better and people acclimate to it and eventually prefer it. I judge nothing on initial reception.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#32
I’m very concerned about Apple's direction in UX.

Big Sur’s dialog boxes, menus, notifications are a mess. And now this Safari comical UI. Every single change has been for the worse.

Whoever is in charge of this, please, listen to feedback and change course. This is a disaster.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#33
post #7

I’ve considered switching to Safari on my Mac because I had heard that it has stellar performance. However, with no support for uBlock Origin because of their incomplete implementation of the extensions API, and now these UI changes, it looks like I’ll stick with Firefox. I still plan to stay with my Mac because of the ecosystem. I’m one of the few who seems to actually like Windows 10. There are warts in Microsoft’s…

Adguard is 99% the same, and free, and on iOS.

Ad blockers on Safari are apparently unable to block YouTube ads, due to API limitations.

I wish Firefox wouldn't excessively drain the battery on macOS, and Chrome wouldn't excessively drain personal data to Google, and Brave wouldn't excessively violate the trust of its users.

As of today, there's not a single browser on macOS that I don't strongly dislike. Looks like Safari won't improve soon.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#34
post #9

I’ve said this before on HN, but as a reminder the following are all verifiable facts: there is no dedicated macOS team anymore, Apple market iPads as a superior alternative to a laptop, and macOS as a percentage of revenue has over a long period dwindled in favour of iOS (with a few minor blips along the way). A reasonable conclusion is that macOS isn’t apple’s priority. Meanwhile with WSL and Terminal Microsoft is…

The MacPorts project has existed for 7 years longer than Homebrew, and is a much more sane experience similar to FreeBSD ports. In fact, Jordan Hubbard, the co-founder of FreeBSD and the original author of FreeBSD ports, was involved in the MacPorts project (along with other Apple employees).

I’m always baffled that Homebrew is seen as the standard macOS package manager. MacPorts has existed for many more years. It behaves more similarly to package managers on other operating systems without weird symlink tricks. It doesn’t send analytics to Google. It has over 25,000 active ports (Homebrew doesn’t seem to publish its formulae count but SO threads seem to indicate something in the region of 4,000). To each their own, but I highly recommend anyone reading this to give MacPorts a try.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#35
Why do browser updates keep fucking with the basic interface design? None of these changes are ever necessary.

If designers need to justify their jobs, fine. They should design the interface layout with modular components that can be entirely customized by the user.

IMO no user should ever be forced to use designs that are the product of meaningless fads in the design world.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#36
post #19

Tabs are imperative to web productivity. On Google Chrome since tabs are on their own row at the top of the window and maintain their size and position you can fling your mouse to the top of the screen easily hit them. On Safari since the address bar expands from the active tab, the size and position of the tabs are drastically changing. This makes selecting a tab more difficult. Additionally, since the size the addr…

If productivity is that much the problem, just use shortcuts.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#37
I have to admit I don't hate the Safari image he's picking on, but it's not great. It's a big shrug.

This line is gold though:

"Going through Big Sur’s user interface with a fine-tooth comb reveals arbitrary design decisions that prioritise looks over function, and therefore reflect an un-learning of tried-and-true user interface and usability mechanics that used to make for a seamless, thoughtful, enjoyable Mac experience."

Cross out "Mac" at the end and it applies even more to Windows than to the Mac. This lack of unified conceptual design, combined with a mindless ape-ing of mobile interfaces on larger machines with large screens and keyboards, describes the whole UI regression trend of the past 10-15 years. We went from thought-out utilitarian UIs with consistency to... a shitpile of random design choices made in isolation. Windows is by far the worst offender here, but Mac has been moving in the wrong direction too for a while.

A desktop is not a phone any more than a tractor is a car. Yes desktops and phones have similar chips in them, but their role and use case in the larger ecosystem is very different.

Desktop/laptop isn't dead either. There are many more PC machines today than there were in the 1990s at the height of the original "PC era." There are just even more phones and tablets (and IoT devices, and voice assistants, and smart cars, and...), and globally the PC's percentage of the market has declined quite a bit. In absolute terms the ecosystem is larger than ever and these machines are used to create virtually everything in our world.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#38

Is there a way to downgrade to an earlier safari version? I'm about to get a new macbook, and I'm not particularly looking forward to having to deal with these UI changes ...

You can not use safari. Chrome for example mostly stays the same unless they feel compelled with these Apple UI changes

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#39
post #9

I’ve said this before on HN, but as a reminder the following are all verifiable facts: there is no dedicated macOS team anymore, Apple market iPads as a superior alternative to a laptop, and macOS as a percentage of revenue has over a long period dwindled in favour of iOS (with a few minor blips along the way). A reasonable conclusion is that macOS isn’t apple’s priority. Meanwhile with WSL and Terminal Microsoft is…

I am going to assume you are ignorant about Windows 11 then.

Because the UI changes they have made there (new Start menu, centred task icons) make the OS look very similar to the so called abandoned macOS.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in considering the changes Thoughts maybe, but did they ask users what they wanted? Did they run usability studies to verify that these changes make sense? I can't imagine that they did. Certain UI changes in macOS, Windows, etc. are so obviously bad (and are eventually changed) that no matter how much they thought about it, they didn't care to ch…

Every user thinks they're the aggregate "users", though. That their personal opinion and take is universal. For instance the address bar on here is a canonical truth and is the linchpin of the experience. See how every time a browser touches it (e.g. Chrome truncating the address) is met with mobs of the angry. Many users -- including even "power" users -- seldom interact with the address bar. Nor is it verification…

> Many users -- including even "power" users -- seldom interact with the address bar. Nor is it verification of anything much. It simply isn't that important anymore.

I interact with the address bar every time I go to page or site. It is my single most interfaces with the browser after the sites themselves.

And that it isn’t much use for verification is exactly the reason why people advocate that it should display all information!

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