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Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

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Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#21

Post by tambourine_man »

defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

> …yet they're presented as if they're objective truths.

Readability is objective. It can be measured. They keep bending themselves backwards to get out of a problem they inflicted upon themselves.

A web browser should be readable first.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#22

Post by arvinsim »

jpxw wrote: post #16
blue_box wrote: post #5

“ And it makes no sense whatsoever that one would want to go looking for the Reload button in a tiny menu with a More… icon.” I don’t even remember when was the last time I clicked the reload button. I just press command + R.

Yeah, to me much of this sounds great. No menu bar? Great, I never use it. Keyboard shortcuts make it unnecessary. No reload button? Great, one less thing I don’t use cluttering up the UI. I understand that less experienced users may find this confusing though. Although saying that i think anyone can learn Cmd-R and Cmd-W, and would be better off for it. I agree with the article on the tab/address bar merge being bad…

It makes no sense to optimize for niche power users over general casual users.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#23

Post by tomduncalf »

nailer wrote: post #9

I’ve said this before on HN, but as a reminder the following are all verifiable facts: there is no dedicated macOS team anymore, Apple market iPads as a superior alternative to a laptop, and macOS as a percentage of revenue has over a long period dwindled in favour of iOS (with a few minor blips along the way). A reasonable conclusion is that macOS isn’t apple’s priority. Meanwhile with WSL and Terminal Microsoft is…

The fact that they have invested what must be an astronomical sum in moving Macs over to their own CPU architecture suggests otherwise. It’s probably more fair to say their vision for MacOS doesn’t align with what everyone would like?

Personally I’m very happy with MacOS and think Big Sur is a great iteration, I really like the look and feel, and the attention to detail to UI that I find lacking in alternatives. But that’s the beauty of choice, not everyone has to agree!

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#24

Post by dkjaudyeqooe »

defaultname wrote: post #11

Linked article refers to the changes in Safari as "thoughtless UI", which is a fairly common argument used against changes that people don't like. Against Apple, Microsoft, WinAmp, Reddit, etc. But let's be fair and note that there quite certainly a lot of very proud, considerate, intentional designers and developers who are behind this change. People who probably put thousands (millions?) multiples of "thought" in c…

It's fairly common because it's commonly true; people don't like the changes for good reasons. Actual innovations in design are fine, but too often changes to user interfaces are arbitrary or are a response to the latest fad or some bright idea marketing or management cooked up.

There is a strong argument for user interface stability. People don't just learn user interfaces, they seep into people's unconscious and muscle memory. It can take a while to learn the idiosyncrasies of a user interface and making changes should have a string justification.

It should be noted that people who are paid to design user interfaces are not paid to use them. Their incentives are to create and tinker. This is a disincentive to do what is often needed: nothing or very slow change.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#25

Post by tofukid »

What happens with background images or gradients and the page bleed effect? Does Safari add additional padding to the top of the page to start top aligned background images from outside the viewport?

Consistency is the most important principle of good user interfaces. At first glance, changing the color of the same interface controls when switching pages seems like it would be very jarring.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#26

Post by geerlingguy »

oneplane wrote: post #17
geerlingguy wrote: post #8

The new tab/address bar thing could be the reason I switch back away from Safari after using it as my main browser for a few years due to its energy efficiency compared to Firefox and Chrome. What UI designer thought taking away more space for the tab bar was a good idea? Does that person even use a web browser?

Do you honestly think this is a one-person job? While you might question the outcome of product development, assuming that a multi-billion R&D budget accounts for 1 designer is just unhelpful. Even just the WebKit commits with Apple engineering contacts is enough to build a whole company around...

One person had the initial idea; the hive mind doesn't make radical changes like this on its own.

A lot of times, you can end up with amazing new ideas that way, but sometimes a change based on ego / "that person is just so brilliant" is just bad. The tab bar thing is going to be Touch Bar 2.0, I think.

The question is, how long is Apple going to push it? I was hopeful the Touch Bar would die with M1 Macs...

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#27

Post by yakubin »

arvinsim wrote: post #22
jpxw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, to me much of this sounds great. No menu bar? Great, I never use it. Keyboard shortcuts make it unnecessary. No reload button? Great, one less thing I don’t use cluttering up the UI. I understand that less experienced users may find this confusing though. Although saying that i think anyone can learn Cmd-R and Cmd-W, and would be better off for it. I agree with the article on the tab/address bar merge being bad…

It makes no sense to optimize for niche power users over general casual users.

Stop patronizing casual users. Cmd+R isn't rocket science, just like Cmd+C. Casual users aren't monkeys.

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#29

Post by minxomat »

zer wrote: post #6
cloogshicer wrote: post #4

Fully agree. I don't understand wtf Apple is doing with their UIs lately. It's as if they were purposefully trying to make things worse.

I wouldn't attribute it to malice. The author has got that probably right: the people in charge think in iOS terms.

Ah yes iOS where refreshing a page now requires you to menu dive instead of having an always accessible button up top

Re: Safari 15 on Mac OS, a user interface mess

#30

Post by threeseed »

> Two things any user, no matter their tech-savviness, has needed in a browser. A wide Address bar to see exactly where they are, which webpage it’s loaded, the whole URL

This is clearly wrong and brings the judgement of the author into question.

People care that they are on "Facebook", "Google", "Youtube". They are not remembering that a stupid cat video belongs to URL: ?v=X2KsttcwC04

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