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HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

reuters.com

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Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#211

Post by _tik_ »

neverminder wrote: post #41
dcolkitt wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right to govern extends from the consent of the governed. It's not a question of who "should" own Hong Kong based on some centuries old history. It's a question of who the people of Hong Kong choose to govern them. Had an open referendum been held in 1997, it's almost certainly the case that the citizenry would not have voted to return to the tutelage of the dictatorship in Beijing.

This is something I don't understand as well. Why didn't Hong Kong choose to become an independent state when they had the chance? They could have thrived like Singapore does.

They could thrive only if their Govt rule like Singapore Govt.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#212

Post by blendergeek »

trainsplanes wrote: post #172
yibg wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question. How common is it for a group of people to have this level of self determination? Eg if people in California decided not to be part of the US, can they?

If the people of California decided to secede, they'd have the entirety of the US military giving them 24 hours to reconsider or else. If somehow California fought back and held out for a few years, maybe the US would give up and let them go, but probably not without intentionally destroying every single valuable asset that state has. As much as people like to paint China as a villain here, a very solid proportion wo…

> If the people of California decided to secede, they'd have the entirety of the US military giving them 24 hours to reconsider or else

Maybe. Maybe not. I personally think the US military would give them a couple of weeks just like they did last time when certain southern states tried to break away. However whether or not the federal government waits a few weeks isn't the main question.

If the people of California held a vote on whether they should be allowed to secede, zero US military personnel would interfere in any way. After holding such a vote, if the California delegation to Congress wanted to, they could force a vote on whether to allow California to secede.

While I would be very surprised if they were allowed to secede, I bet the people of California could win concessions from the other state governments. California elects nearly an eighth of the house of representatives. Combine their delegation with right-wing republicans who might be more than happy to eject California and the House might just vote to lose California. Through all of this, the military will do nothing. The Senate will be harder to convince, because every state has the same amount of representation.

Texas discussed secession recently, as did a few other States. While we did militarily crush the states who tried to leave in the 1860s, they attacked us first. Then we invaded them and brought them back.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#214

Post by blendergeek »

yibg wrote: post #150
blendergeek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HK is [a part] of China Politically? Physically? Culturally? Morally? Currently Hong Kong is ruled by China. Many in Hong Kong might prefer something different. If the government in Beijing allowed them to, they might choose complete independence. > why should GB be able to dictate Chinese law based on a colony they took from China hundreds of years ago? Why should a government in Beijing be allowed to dictate poli…

Serious question. How common is it for a group of people to have this level of self determination? Eg if people in California decided not to be part of the US, can they?

Well, if the people of California all wanted to leave, they could elect a legislature and a Congressional delegation that is pro-secession. This is farther than China will allow Hong Kong.

After this, the California Congressional delegation could introduce a California secession bill. This bill would be debated in Congress.

If they were really serious, the Californians could support a constitutional amendment specifically allowing secession sort of like Article 50 of the EU.

But there are other example of people having this right. The people of Scotland narrowly voted to remain in the UK (but could have left). The people of Northern Ireland have the option to leave the UK. The UK chose to leave the EU. Puerto Rico could probably leave the US (who currently rules them) if they wanted to.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#215

Post by ridiculous_lol »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #197
ridiculous_lol wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PRC can also claim Vietnam with this reasoning, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_under_Chinese_rule

There no equivalence at all between Hongkong and Vietnam... That's beyond ridiculous.

> There no equivalence at all between Hongkong and Vietnam

And there's an equivalence between Tibet and HongKong?

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#217

Post by fighterpilot »

throwawayHK wrote: post #124
xwolfi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for…

The situation is clearly asymmetric tough. The Apple Daily is not a great paper and they got more coverage than they deserve but they are symptomatic of a need for people to voice opposing opinions. Now there is basically nothing left. Local news outlets will censor themselves because the law is overly vague and will be systematically interpreted in the broadest possible way. Journalists are harassed and intimidated,…

It sometimes goes beyond harassment and intimidation of journalists into outright assault:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_attack_on_Kevin_Lau

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#218

Post by bennysomething »

_tik_ wrote: post #169
bennysomething wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just utter nonsense, and I say this as someone who grew up in northern Ireland. So you think HK will be better when it's more equal?

I am not really familiar with Northern Ireland and how it relates to Hong Kong. Most of youngster in HK are quite pessimistic on their economic future. Working hours are long. Houses are very expensive, small and crowded. The strange things is most of the population don't speak English but in corporate the language are English. This make a lot of locals was overlooked in Job Promotion.

The N Ireland thing is about British repression, which was mentioned. Some people like to claim the British occupy northern Ireland (they don't, the majority want British rule). If a free press, fair elections, rule of law are what repressing dissent looks like, then I'm not sure how the CCP stack up!

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#219

Post by throwaway2048 »

skissane wrote: post #173
jollybean wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia looked unstoppable from the outside, but from the inside it was crumbling. China is not crumbling. They don't have a controlled economy in the direct way that the Russians did, and as long as they have economic prosperity ... they'll do just fine. I don't see them screwing that up. It doesn't matter that much who's diplomats look like fools, it matters what the GDP is, how powerful the military is, how much co…

China faces some big challenges moving in to the future. One is the demographic challenge of a declining population. Most Western countries face a similar challenge of low births, but many of them significantly counteract it through mass immigration; China however doesn't have that and shows no signs of being open to introducing it. Another is that many people will put up with an authoritarian system as long as they…

its dangerous to assume that somehow the natural state of people is to "not put up with the lack of freedom".

That was the entire lie peddled with respect to opening trade with china from the west to begin with, and look at the results.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#220

Post by thinktankie »

arafooo wrote: post #204
thinktankie wrote: post #123

A reminder that Mark Simon, a senior figure at Next Media (owner of Apple Daily), has literally worked for the CIA and his father was a senior US intelligence officer. [1] [1] https://www.citizendaily.news/mark-simon-jimmy-lais-right-ha...

The same site also states Xi Jinping to be in an incestuous relationship with his own daughter. This is not credible.

His employment and family history is a fact and has been reported elsewhere also. Hopefully Financial Times is credible enough for you [1].

Would you mind sharing the link to the article about Xi Jinping’s “incestuous relationship” with his daughter? I couldn’t find it.

[1] “The claims are driven by the fact that Mark Simon, Mr Lai’s right-hand man, is the son of a veteran CIA officer and has worked for US naval intelligence.”

https://www.ft.com/content/f1cb693e-2f44-11e4-a79c-00144feab...

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