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HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

reuters.com

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Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#171

Post by dirtyid »

jquery wrote: post #53
adventured wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are no actions the US, EU, Japan & Co. can collective take that will alter China's political system from the outside. It's why whenever people talk about ganging up on China, they're always extremely vague about it. That's because it's entirely bunk. Do something! What? Something! Do a thing! Which thing? The thing! It's identical to bumper stickers that (used to) say: Save Tibet, it's largely empty virtue sign…

So what’s your big plan? Sounds like fatalism to me, and I’m not buying it. China is just the latest authoritarian government to look unstoppable from the outside just like the USSR once did. It does not have the internal agility necessary to thrive long term. Already China’s diplomatic “wolf warriors” are making fools of China on the international stage, and China is increasingly unable to pragmatically adjust. This…

> “wolf warriors” are making fools of China on the international stag

Firm commitment to XJ / HK crackdown, wolf warrior diplomacy and counter sanctions are sensible strategy that's paying off tangibly counter to western reporting. PRC showing teeth on core-issues is setting norms to be treated as large player who can act with relative impunity on core-interests (like US), demonstrating unwavering commitment and mitigating cost to future actions (read: Taiwan). How many PRC elites have been extradited after PRC retaliated over Meng, how many (non-US) sanctions after PRC clapped back when EU thought it could sanction cost free? None. PRC is seeking level of impunity commiserate with status as #2 global power, and seeing how watered down / theatric diplomatic statements that followed US meetings with partners have been, it's working. Very few countries are credibly committed to PRC containment.

>unable to pragmatically adjust

There's a reason every major bloc is copying PRC's industrial policies. Because it's pragmatic and more agile.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#172

Post by trainsplanes »

yibg wrote: post #150
blendergeek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HK is [a part] of China Politically? Physically? Culturally? Morally? Currently Hong Kong is ruled by China. Many in Hong Kong might prefer something different. If the government in Beijing allowed them to, they might choose complete independence. > why should GB be able to dictate Chinese law based on a colony they took from China hundreds of years ago? Why should a government in Beijing be allowed to dictate poli…

Serious question. How common is it for a group of people to have this level of self determination? Eg if people in California decided not to be part of the US, can they?

If the people of California decided to secede, they'd have the entirety of the US military giving them 24 hours to reconsider or else. If somehow California fought back and held out for a few years, maybe the US would give up and let them go, but probably not without intentionally destroying every single valuable asset that state has.

As much as people like to paint China as a villain here, a very solid proportion would support similar actions in the US.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#173

Post by skissane »

jollybean wrote: post #142
jquery wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what’s your big plan? Sounds like fatalism to me, and I’m not buying it. China is just the latest authoritarian government to look unstoppable from the outside just like the USSR once did. It does not have the internal agility necessary to thrive long term. Already China’s diplomatic “wolf warriors” are making fools of China on the international stage, and China is increasingly unable to pragmatically adjust. This…

Russia looked unstoppable from the outside, but from the inside it was crumbling. China is not crumbling. They don't have a controlled economy in the direct way that the Russians did, and as long as they have economic prosperity ... they'll do just fine. I don't see them screwing that up. It doesn't matter that much who's diplomats look like fools, it matters what the GDP is, how powerful the military is, how much co…

China faces some big challenges moving in to the future.

One is the demographic challenge of a declining population. Most Western countries face a similar challenge of low births, but many of them significantly counteract it through mass immigration; China however doesn't have that and shows no signs of being open to introducing it.

Another is that many people will put up with an authoritarian system as long as they see it producing high-levels of economic growth, but it is unlikely that China can sustain those high levels forever, and people may prove less willing to put up with the lack of freedom in worse economic times.

Another is that while China is good at playing technological catch-up it still hasn't demonstrated much capacity to produce genuinely original technological innovations. And here there is the argument that open societies have an inherent advantage in producing those innovations over authoritarian societies such as China. If that is true, then that is going to give the US and its allies a permanent economic advantage over China.

These challenges are not going to be the immediate downfall of the CCP. But in another 30 or 40 years?

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#174

Post by _tik_ »

cntrmmbrpsswrd wrote: post #132
_tik_ wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened under British Hong Kong too. The British never tolerate dissenting voice.The 1960 and 1967 protest, the British label it as Riot, end in violence too. I think Hong Kong can only be peaceful if they solve the huge inequality. The image of wealth and poverty living side by side is very dystopian.

The British tried to hold democratic elections during that time, but it was the Communist Party that pressured them not to. The riots you're talking about were Hong Kong Communist going against the British. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Hong_Kong_riots

I read wikipedia. I just realized that the suppresion is more brutal than what I imagined. Are u referring to HK 1997 election? That election is after the British reluctantly agree to handover HK. From the CCP point of view the elections is a plot to sabotage the Handover. It is not that iI agree or disagree with CCP view or British motive. There are many anti colonial politicians in Asia suspicious of the British motive.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#175

Post by dvfjsdhgfv »

phyalow wrote: post #3

This is another nail in the coffin of the Hong Kong we knew and loved… I was a resident for many years, I witnessed the peaceful protests of 2014, I witnessed horrifying wanton violence in 2019, I witnessed the rapid destruction of the freest laissez faire city state in the world. Above all I feel great sadness for the people of Hong Kong. The CCP cannot tolerate any dissenting voices as a matter of preserving their…

But why would this be in any way surprising? We knew since the agreement between China an the UK that this day would come. The whole world knew. Maybe the residents of HK had some vague hope China would give them more freedom than in the mainland (why would they??) but in other parts of the world the picture was rather clear. I expected massive emigration but as far as I can tell people had the idea to stay and fight at home.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#176

Post by CogitoCogito »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #164
blendergeek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HK is [a part] of China Politically? Physically? Culturally? Morally? Currently Hong Kong is ruled by China. Many in Hong Kong might prefer something different. If the government in Beijing allowed them to, they might choose complete independence. > why should GB be able to dictate Chinese law based on a colony they took from China hundreds of years ago? Why should a government in Beijing be allowed to dictate poli…

> Politically? Physically? Culturally? Morally? Currently Hong Kong is ruled by China. Many in Hong Kong might prefer something different. If the government in Beijing allowed them to, they might choose complete independence. This ignorance and arrogance actually makes strong action by the central (Chinese) government even more popular and supported by the Chinese public. Western opinion has somehow been made to beli…

Please stop with your grandstanding of what is and is not moral. China has a long imperialist history of taking over areas not culturally, ethnically, or morally a part of China. Tibet and Xinjiang are two obvious examples and the fact that it happened in the past doesn't make it better (especially when there is an active push by the PRC today to further assimilate the areas). The fact that they act like they have some right to annex Taiwan is just another example.

That doesn't mean that the UK was right in its actions, but let's not play games here. These were wars waged between two empires. China wasn't some sort of blameless victim. They are not some victim now.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#177

Post by foepys »

extraAccount wrote: post #144
riffraff wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU foreign policy needs unanimity, and some of the governments (mostly Hungary right now) will not allow it to take positions against abusive dictatorships. So it'll be many years before the EU becomes a foreign policy power.

The EU has a lot of domestic problems it is trying to address. It is in no position to try to deal with China.

China is also Germany's second largest trading partner. France and Germany basically head the EU, so it's very unlikely that the EU will take a strong stance against China until this changes.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#178

Post by xwolfi »

baybal2 wrote: post #168
xwolfi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for…

> These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for the communists, which could have been instead worked around. It couldn't have been worked around. It doesn't work this way. There is no other way, in 2048, or in 2022, no other way around. That's the goal of Beijing. Tell us if it's something else. On other hand, if HK turns into mini-Syria, it would've mobilised way more people, even the most ine…

Well the goal of Beijing is for the party to survive, there are many solutions between murdering us all and let HK become a country.

I mean we're a city, we have no army, what do you propose ? I propose to work around the party, like Macau, sing the anthem from time to time and basta, the problem can only be fixed by China as a whole, not at our level.

Beijing cannot "back off" more violence, they can only double down. Put yourself in their shoe: if they're a mafia in need of legitimacy and survival, that committed too many crimes to welcome honest competition, how can a HK citizen think that burning a local metro station will make them "oh right, freedom is too important for HK, we should maybe even copy them".

Before immediately jumping to desperate violence, maybe we can try to bribe them. Which is what we did before, and what we now do albeit with a bit more cost to re-assure that yes yes we're good patriots until the dragon goes back to sleep...

I prefer to discuss about things in a less free Hong Kong than starve and steal in a mini Syria but you're welcome to solve problems that way where you live :D

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#179

Post by xwolfi »

Bayart wrote: post #139
xwolfi wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree, as a current resident, I also witnessed the insane destructive behavior of Apple Daily, who did exagerate quite a bit the situation and was far from a neutral observer. I'd even say that telling kids the police murdered 2000 people was not exactly helping them strategize rather than throw themselves in desperate waves at the police... These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for…

>These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for the communists Ah yes, the victim left absolute no choice to the aggressor than to punch them in the face ! What sort of logic is that ? You don't arrest bad journalists, just like you don't burn bad books or censor bad movies out of the excuse that they're bad . On first principles, the nature of things is more important than their subjective valu…

You dont but they do. So we have three choices: lick their boots, throw ourselves at their jails, or discuss alternatives until we find one. I'd rather continue discussing than say it's already too late, but I live in it and you dont so maybe that's why.

Re: HK's Apple Daily raided by 500 officers over national security law

#180

Post by tpm »

xwolfi wrote: post #179
Bayart wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These guys all pushed the situation towards a point of no return for the communists Ah yes, the victim left absolute no choice to the aggressor than to punch them in the face ! What sort of logic is that ? You don't arrest bad journalists, just like you don't burn bad books or censor bad movies out of the excuse that they're bad . On first principles, the nature of things is more important than their subjective valu…

You dont but they do. So we have three choices: lick their boots, throw ourselves at their jails, or discuss alternatives until we find one. I'd rather continue discussing than say it's already too late, but I live in it and you dont so maybe that's why.

There are no alternatives in totalitarian regimes, the only other option is to leave. Yes, I have lived in one.
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