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Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

renehersecycles.com

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Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#411

Post by krono »

photojosh wrote: post #207
krono wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my roady friends are jealous because I get to use my gravelbike off-road, and my mountainbike friends are jealous at me for being able to keep up with roadies. And all that for the price of one bike and an extra set of wheels with slicks! Canyon Grail here, yes the one with the weird cockpit :)

How off-road do you go? I have a gravel bike too, but I much prefer the MTB for rocky descents.

Mostly just normal gravel roads and forest paths. I have done some very light MTB trails (here in the flatter than flat Netherlands), and did some touring through the German Eifel (that was intense!) and the Belgian Ardennes.

For me it's al about having the freedom to go where I feel like going in the moment and not having to worry too much about gear. For me this bike is like the golden mean, but there are other gravel bikes with slightly more clearance or better shock absorption if you're looking to take it on slightly more intense trips.

Here's a quirky gravel-centric YouTube channel I came across a while back: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCV9WtB_q5sJfe3Rev5PWy-Q

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#412

Post by petre »

bluecalm wrote: post #409
petre wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One by drivetrains certainly have their advantages, but many new gravel bikes sacrifice 2x drivetrain compatibility for ultra short chainstays and only accept 1x. Notable examples are Marin Headlands and the Gestalt X10 and X11. Others models that also accept 2x have their whole lineup equipped with 1x. If you also want to use the bike as a road bike, good luck with that. It's either climb hills or go fast with curre…

My first gravel bike came with 42t crank and 11-42 cassette. It's perfect for everyday use. You spin out at like 45km/h (or even higher if you can do high cadence) while the 1-1 gear allows you to climb pretty steep hills. Sure, it's not enough for a road race and I prefer 2x drivetrain these days as I do a lot of distance on pavement but I still think 1x is just a better option for most recreational cyclists.

I can't really climb steep hills with 28 gear inches on the road, let alone on singletrack. But yes, your gear ratio is suitable for road.

My all-road bike has 23 (30/34·26.5", 650bx45 wheels). I don't race.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#413

Post by pmontra »

haswell wrote: post #181
pmontra wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally my gravel bike is faster with 28 mm slick tires than with 42 mm sawtooth tires. Of course sawtooth vs slick makes a difference in friction. The hubs in the wheels could make a difference too. I use the 28 mm wheels when I go on asphalt roads in the mountains because I don't want the extra weight and friction. 42 mm for everything else.

> Anecdotally my gravel bike is faster with 28 mm slick tires than with 42 mm sawtooth tires. Out of curiosity, do you know this to be true, or believe this to be true? I ask because the perception of speed with skinnier tires is one of the things the article touches on. I felt similarly when I put GP5000 28mm slicks on the gravel bike, but when I looked at my ride history, I couldn’t really back that feeling of spee…

I don't usually do the same routes with gravel and road tires so it's difficult to have hard data to back my claim. The only one I have is 1h 59m vs 1h 56m on a flat fully paved route. So not a big improvement, 2.5%?

However the bike feels lighter with road tires. At low speed I accelerate faster and I can keep a higher speed for a longer time. The 42 mm tires have a shallow sawtooth tread so they can't be as fast as the slick 28 mm ones.

And the bike is really lighter with road tires. One 42 mm tire is 600 grams, plus a larger tube. I don't remember the weight of the 28 mm tire, but it's less and the tube is smaller.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#414

Post by chemmail »

stinos wrote: post #370
mymythisisthis wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Touring bike is my favourite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touring_bicycle#/media/File:Lo... Very similar to cycle cross (a wide range of gears) https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Fo... The hybrid has straight handlebars https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/AE... Mountain bikes, gravel bikes, are slow. Gearing is for climbing a mountain. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe…

Mountain bikes, gravel bikes, are slow Given the huge difference between the 2 I'm not sure what you mean? Also because these days 'mountain bike' is an umbrella term, whereas gravel bike is still rather specific. E.g. that last link shows already a rather specific segment of maountain bikes: dual suspension, quite a lot of travel on the front suspension, totally suited for going down the hill fast as well.

Yeah the bottom one is close to being a Bomber.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#415

Post by ben7799 »

jmilloy wrote: post #392
ben7799 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rene Herse tires are just branding on tires he has made for him by Panaracer. They used to be called Compass Tires till he made a deal with the Rene Herse estate to use the Herse name for branding. He basically asks Panaracer to make everything thinner & lighter and delete flat protection, reduce the tread thickness, etc.. They are fast & potentially comfortable tires for their size due to being made as very racy…

This is valuable context. Yet, some high profile riders such as Ted King (possible the top gravel racer) and Lael Wilcox (ultra endurance racing and bikepacking) use these tires with success. If someone is getting a lot of flats using the Extralight casing, they should consider the Endurance or Ultra Endurance casings and/or setting up tubeless. But even Jan will recommend the Panaracer Gravelkings when necessary, es…

Those riders are all influencers and likely getting the tires through sponsorship though, that is something that always needs to be kept in mind with cycling. They don't make enough money to necessarily be able to ride what they think is best if something else can be ridden for free or for payment.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#416

Post by ultrarunner »

dharmab wrote: post #281
stickfigure wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised. I've taken my 500-pound dirt bike (KTM 990A) to the end of Baja (all dirt), across the Trans America Trail, and to Alaska and back. Did most of the hard splits on LA-Barstow-to-Vegas a few years ago, and endless dirt riding in the Sierras and Nevada. And I'm by no means the best rider I know. Single track is hard work but there's nothing quite like ripping open the throttle on a 100hp dirt bike an…

To be fair the VStrom 1000 the commentor was riding is fairly heavy and street oriented. A KTM, Tenere or smaller GS blows it out of the water off road.

I've ridden with some others on big KTMs who struggle a lot more than the guys on the smaller bikes. I think once a certain weight threshold is crossed there's no argument that the bike is appropriately called an "off-road" bike, no matter how knobby the tires. Conversely, aesthetics are always in play. Especially for the GS guys at Starbucks ;)

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#417

Post by wolrah »

nchi3 wrote: post #310
wolrah wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second most annoying thing to me about cyclists are the number of them who complain about the quality of the road or path while riding what is more or less a race bike. Shockingly, road race vehicles of any variety generally are not built for comfort or ability to handle less than ideal conditions. Stop acting like you think you're in the TdF and get a bike that makes sense for where you ride.

Bad as in not-smooth or bad as in pot holes? I hope not the latter, because that's dangerous no matter the type of bike, and I haven't heard/read many people complain about the former.

Bad as in not smooth, like far from perfect but also nothing I had ever thought twice about while riding a couple hundred dollar retail store mountain bike. Average Ohio roads, not the worst but definitely weathered.

My former housemate had some kind of race bike with a carbon fiber frame, it weighed next to nothing but he was constantly in fear of road debris, couldn't hop curbs, etc. It was a terrible choice for where he was actually riding.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#418

Post by wolrah »

gield wrote: post #272
wolrah wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second most annoying thing to me about cyclists are the number of them who complain about the quality of the road or path while riding what is more or less a race bike. Shockingly, road race vehicles of any variety generally are not built for comfort or ability to handle less than ideal conditions. Stop acting like you think you're in the TdF and get a bike that makes sense for where you ride.

If the quality of the road is bad, gravel bikes are equally as uncomfortable as race bikes. Not talking about non-asphalted roads as race bikes are of course not made for those.

I'm not talking about comfort, I'm talking about ability to handle the surface properly. Skinny nonsense race bike tires get swallowed up by cracks in the road that reasonable tires just go right over. They're more fragile to debris and simply have less traction on less than ideal surfaces because there's just less tread to work with.

That said the idea that more air cushion space doesn't lead to greater comfort is absurd. A tire that has room to compress doesn't bottom out.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#419

Post by jmilloy »

ben7799 wrote: post #415
jmilloy wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is valuable context. Yet, some high profile riders such as Ted King (possible the top gravel racer) and Lael Wilcox (ultra endurance racing and bikepacking) use these tires with success. If someone is getting a lot of flats using the Extralight casing, they should consider the Endurance or Ultra Endurance casings and/or setting up tubeless. But even Jan will recommend the Panaracer Gravelkings when necessary, es…

Those riders are all influencers and likely getting the tires through sponsorship though, that is something that always needs to be kept in mind with cycling. They don't make enough money to necessarily be able to ride what they think is best if something else can be ridden for free or for payment.

These people are routinely winning long distance races on offroad and unpaved surfaces using these tires. That is evidence that the tires are indeed durable, regardless of whether they would prefer other tires.
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