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Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

renehersecycles.com

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Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#281

Post by dharmab »

stickfigure wrote: post #247
ultrarunner wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that "designed for [off] road mix" is pretty charitable. A 500-pound dirt bike with a comfortable seating position wins the tough-aesthetics competition, but off road performance is meager at best. I built decent off-road skills on a DL1000, but the weight was always such a liability as to make it impracticable. I moved to a smaller and lighter bike and have more fun, but 99% of people I met in Arizona…

You'd be surprised. I've taken my 500-pound dirt bike (KTM 990A) to the end of Baja (all dirt), across the Trans America Trail, and to Alaska and back. Did most of the hard splits on LA-Barstow-to-Vegas a few years ago, and endless dirt riding in the Sierras and Nevada. And I'm by no means the best rider I know. Single track is hard work but there's nothing quite like ripping open the throttle on a 100hp dirt bike an…

To be fair the VStrom 1000 the commentor was riding is fairly heavy and street oriented. A KTM, Tenere or smaller GS blows it out of the water off road.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#282

Post by mantas »

loeg wrote: post #153
mantas wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty big when you take into account whole context. Stuck up "socks size is a rule" UCI, historical norms, technical limitations (25mm is a limit for caliper brakes), tire tech (wider tires used to be heavy).... My prediction is 27mm being the norm in next 5 years. Currently I'm riding a decade-old road bike. It was fancy at the time because it fit 25mm tires without issues. People would give me shit for "slow"…

25mm is not a limit for caliper brakes? No idea why you claim that. One of my bikes has calipers and can fit 33mm tires. Also 28mm is extremely common; 27mm doesn't exist.

Classic road bike caliper breaks don't >25mm. 33mm would be cantilever CX brakes. Or a weird type of caliper.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#283

Post by gield »

germinalphrase wrote: post #146
haswell wrote: post #12

This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires. I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks…

Rumor has it that a very prominent British Tour de France competitor rides a re-badged/stealth gravel bike because he finds it more comfortable.

Gravel bikes are easy to distinguish from race bikes, even when rebadged. If it was true, many fans and commentators would have noticed already.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#284

Post by sliken »

jmilloy wrote: post #191
jiscariot wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My only complaint about the gravel trend is that at the entry (and mid) level they are often using pretty crappy disc brakes when rim brakes would have been a better choice in 90% of cases. When they are hydraulic, they are a dream to use, but with a cable you really lose the brake feel.

Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice. [0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...

Heh, rene makes a business out of being different, and has some good ideas, but they do push it to far sometimes.

Sure I get it, a stoppie shows that the brakes are not a bottleneck, it's the traction. So sure, sometimes, on some bikes, with some riders, under some conditions you get perfect braking.

However in the real world there's various rim surfaces (aluminum, steel, carbon fiber), with a variation of water, grit, sand, snow, ice to complicate things. Cable have friction and slack. Rims sometimes are not perfectly round/true in both horizontal and vertical directions. Brake pads are rarely perfectly aligned (the alignment changes as the pads wear), rarely nice soft rubber (they glaze over with heat and/or age), and are rarely braking on perfectly clean rims.

So yes, I've done a stoppie with rim brakes, but the average performance of average hydraulic disc brakes greatly exceeds the average performance of rim brakes. Their other complaint about being grabby is highly brand specific, plenty offer great modulation. Not only to discs brake better, modulate better, and tolerate temp changes better better, but they also tend to apply more even pressure. Even small differences in trueness tend to create spots on the wheel that brake less or brake more.

I didn't realize how big the difference was, or the habits I had with rim brakes. Took me awhile to unlearn dragging my brakes when ever I hit a puddle, waiting for them to catch again.

Sure if you have a pro mechanic realign your pads before every ride you'll rarely run into an issue that rim brakes handle well. However if you spend more time riding than maintenance discs will serve you well.

There's a reason even the road racers, the most conservative of the bicyclist, are switching to discs.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#286

Post by sliken »

analog31 wrote: post #216
jmilloy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice. [0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...

While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable. Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brak…

I've had top of the line campy brakes, top of the line shimano (dura-ace), and quite a few of the other options.

Do yourself a favor and try out some decent hydraulic brakes. Now only are they pretty amazing, but amazingly consistent. Even in rain, heat, cold, etc. Also it's MUCH rarer to have to undo a brake, just because your wheel went out of true.

Try to track your use, going downhill and hit a puddle, do you drag your brakes? Why? Wait till they grip again? I had no idea I had such habits.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#287

Post by sliken »

kohlerm wrote: post #254
analog31 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't dispute this, and I have both kinds of bikes, when I talk to "casual" cyclists who have tried disc brakes, they almost unanimously describe the difference as being like night and day. Perhaps the issue is that they are comparing new disc brakes on good bikes, to old crappy neglected rim brakes on cheap bikes. Still, the difference in popularity is unmistakable. Myself, I'm not getting rid of my rim brak…

For pure road bikes rim brakes are ok IMHO only under certain conditions.e.g. no carbon rims and not much dirt and try conditions. These are not the conditions you will find off-road. Also the difference in wet conditions is IMHo still night and day.

Heh, have you ridden on road? I find it at least as dirty as offroad. If anything more grit in the winter, any moisture and everything (bike, shoes, legs, socks, etc).

Roads are far from clean, and if anything the debris is more abrasive than you'll find off road. I'd rather have normal dirt than tire and disc dust you'll find on the road.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#288

Post by tomgp »

vishnugupta wrote: post #264
haswell wrote: post #12

This is one of the reasons I love the emergence of the "Gravel" category of bikes. They look and have geometry similar to a road bike, but they have enough clearance for nice fat gravel tires. I ride in Chicago (shitty roads, potholes & construction are everywhere), and love that I can put nice 38mm+ GravelKing Slick tires on the bike, and still have no problem keeping up with most road bikes. I've gotten funny looks…

In this part of the world they are called "hybrid" bikes[1]. Fast and sleek enough for regular city commute and rugged enough for occasional off-road cycling. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfLwm_SOzaI

hybrid bikes are a bit different from gravel bikes. the latter tend to have drop bars, more mountain bike-ish gearing and a more road bike like sitting position compare: kona dew (a pretty traditional hybrid) https://www.konaworld.com/dew.cfm kona rove (firmly in the gravel/ adventure category) https://www.konaworld.com/rove_dl.cfm

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#289

Post by darkwater »

sliken wrote: post #284
jmilloy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! In the same series: Myth: disc brakes work better than rim brakes[0]. The rim is the rotor of a bit disc brake rotor that cools better and doesn't add any weight. But the wider tires make disc brakes a necessary choice. [0] https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-12-disc-brakes-work-bet...

Heh, rene makes a business out of being different, and has some good ideas, but they do push it to far sometimes. Sure I get it, a stoppie shows that the brakes are not a bottleneck, it's the traction. So sure, sometimes, on some bikes, with some riders, under some conditions you get perfect braking. However in the real world there's various rim surfaces (aluminum, steel, carbon fiber), with a variation of water, gri…

When I was a city rider to commute, pads alignment was a real PITA and the main reason that made me switch to disc brakes. I was always feeling braked and spending more effort than really needed because one pad was touching the rim. With disc brakes that feeling disappeared and never came back, although you still need to do some maintenance from time to time.

Re: Myths in cycling: wider tires are slower

#290

Post by tomgp »

LAC-Tech wrote: post #170
ultrarunner wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that "designed for [off] road mix" is pretty charitable. A 500-pound dirt bike with a comfortable seating position wins the tough-aesthetics competition, but off road performance is meager at best. I built decent off-road skills on a DL1000, but the weight was always such a liability as to make it impracticable. I moved to a smaller and lighter bike and have more fun, but 99% of people I met in Arizona…

Well there's shades of grey between paved tarmac and proper off road. Not a motorcyclists but I assume these adventure/dual sport bikes perform much better over say unsealed roads, and are at least workable on fire roads.

Totally, in London i regularly encounter cobbled streets, my big tyre gravel bike is perfect.
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