Kids need freedom, too • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#21

Post by mikepurvis » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

kbelder wrote: post #2

I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant. My argument is that it's statistically very safe, especially in our neighborhood, and that we and her older brothers all did similar things. Her argument is that a girl needs to be more cautious than a boy, and that although she knows it's unlikely anything bad would hap…

My eldest is also a daughter of a similar age. What my partner and I have said is "yes you're old enough to go do things, as long as you're going with friends." She's not old enough to go places alone, or to go places where she'll be supervising her younger sibs. But she's old enough to be in a setting where peers are watching out for each other and know how to find help if needed.

I know that's still a walk-back from what previous generations enjoyed, but it's not that different from what we both experienced at this age in the 90s. And in parallel to this, we've put a fair bit into teaching our kids to navigate on foot, use public transportation, and safely ride their bikes on the road— all of it an investment in pre-car/non-car teenage autonomy.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#22

Post by quadrangle » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:17 PM UTC

version_five wrote: post #3

Large businesses have the biggest lobbying groups so their agendas get the most attention, though editorial campaigns, laws, etc. There are a few groups concerned with personal freedom, and so personal freedom is not forgotten, but is deprioritized over what business wants. Children have almost no advocates I would argue. The only people lobbying "on their behalf" are trying to gain power in some way, using fear, etc…

Indeed. But note that there's a ton of personal-freedom rhetoric in our world. However, it exists primarily entirely in the form of propaganda that serves the interests of bigger lobbying groups. Personal freedom in that sense matters when it's the freedom to be a consumer in the market buying the products that the business wants to sell. The personal freedoms that have nothing to do with the market or which enable people to function outside of the market, those are indeed deprioritized.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#23

Post by asciimov » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #13

Does anyone else feel like the current climate is partly a by-product of the lazy “think of the children!” Rhetoric that so many law enforcement agencies and politicians use to get their legislation and budgets passed? It’s hard to let kids be unsupervised if the only thing you hear from politicians, police and others is that kids are in so much danger we need to pass otherwise ridiculous laws just to protect them.

It's between that, the zero tolerance policies that many places have, and the unwalkable suburban residential nightmares we have built.

I know for several of my minority friends, they won't let their kids go anywhere alone due to run-ins with law enforcement.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#24

Post by Nullabillity » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #19

kbelder wrote: post #2

I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant. My argument is that it's statistically very safe, especially in our neighborhood, and that we and her older brothers all did similar things. Her argument is that a girl needs to be more cautious than a boy, and that although she knows it's unlikely anything bad would hap…

> We're planning to compromise by letting her do it, but only after we get her her first phone. Might I suggest looking into one of those cell phone watches for kids. They allow you to lock down who they can send and receive calls/messages from and have gps and geofencing so you can keep an eye on them. It basically allows you to give them the advantages of a phone, without having to give them a phone.

The irony in making this suggestion in this thread...

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#25

Post by recursivedoubts » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

Social trust has been falling for decades, and the blame lies at the feet of nearly all our major institutions: both political parties as well as the permanent bureocracy, corporations, churches, the media and so on. If we want a healthy society, of which independent children are a part, we should work to restore social trust.

"We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.”

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#26

Post by _Microft » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #7

I went back to my old school for a tour/"try and get Alumni to donate money" event. I was shocked at the changes, especially in the "Elf and Safety" (Health and Safety). Pupils are required to wear body and head padding for Rugby. Junior pupils in primary school cannot do full contact tackles until they are older in high school. I wasn't the most sporty at school, but I appreciated the rough and tumble of rugby, foot…

Repeated concussions are suspected of increasing the risk of developing mental health problems one day by several times.

This might be the correct term: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalop...

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#27

Post by quadrangle » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

jrochkind1 wrote: post #20

version_five wrote: post #3

Large businesses have the biggest lobbying groups so their agendas get the most attention, though editorial campaigns, laws, etc. There are a few groups concerned with personal freedom, and so personal freedom is not forgotten, but is deprioritized over what business wants. Children have almost no advocates I would argue. The only people lobbying "on their behalf" are trying to gain power in some way, using fear, etc…

Why don't large businesses want children walking to the park by themselves? What's the large business interest here?

I think the argument in this case is simply that there isn't a business interest in getting kids to go to the park themselves, so it just doesn't get the attention that business-interest issues do.

But we could also describe how kids being independent and walking to the park bypasses all the market activity they could be doing otherwise: social media, video games, other commercial activities, etc. But that's not the primary argument.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#28

Post by HarryHirsch » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

kbelder wrote: post #2

I'm having this issue a bit with my wife. I want my 9-yr old daughter to go to the playground a couple blocks away on her own; my wife is reluctant. My argument is that it's statistically very safe, especially in our neighborhood, and that we and her older brothers all did similar things. Her argument is that a girl needs to be more cautious than a boy, and that although she knows it's unlikely anything bad would hap…

The bigger risk is getting run over by an inattentive driver, and yet most parents are worrying about pedophiles. How would a phone guard against distracted driving?

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#29

Post by quadrangle » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

mothsonasloth wrote: post #7

I went back to my old school for a tour/"try and get Alumni to donate money" event. I was shocked at the changes, especially in the "Elf and Safety" (Health and Safety). Pupils are required to wear body and head padding for Rugby. Junior pupils in primary school cannot do full contact tackles until they are older in high school. I wasn't the most sporty at school, but I appreciated the rough and tumble of rugby, foot…

Well, there's some argument for stats and science here.

Padding for Rugby might actually make sense whereas the trend where kids can't go to the park or the grocery store alone is counterproductive.

A world where kids playing actually risky sports use safety equipment but also have the independence to go to the park and do pick-up games with friends with no adult supervision, that sounds like the right balance. Not every change today is bad.

Re: Kids need freedom, too

#30

Post by slownews45 » Wed, Jun 16, 2021, 6:24 PM UTC

asciimov wrote: post #23

atty wrote: post #13

Does anyone else feel like the current climate is partly a by-product of the lazy “think of the children!” Rhetoric that so many law enforcement agencies and politicians use to get their legislation and budgets passed? It’s hard to let kids be unsupervised if the only thing you hear from politicians, police and others is that kids are in so much danger we need to pass otherwise ridiculous laws just to protect them.

It's between that, the zero tolerance policies that many places have, and the unwalkable suburban residential nightmares we have built. I know for several of my minority friends, they won't let their kids go anywhere alone due to run-ins with law enforcement.

At least your friends will be able to let their kids go places once the police are defunded.

I know of communities where they won't let kids go anywhere because the lack of law enforcement (this includes minority communities). So this concern about law enforcement presence is not universal though white allies are big on focusing on that area.