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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#141

Post by throwaway0a5e »

jfrunyon wrote: post #130
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And everyone seems to think that the fact that all the billionaires came from a situation of decent familial wealth enabling them to make big bets refutes the fact that most people who don't screw up too bad end their career much better than they started and that most people's kids manage to start a rung up or so. Plumber sends his kids to community college and all that.

Why does the millionaire's kid deserve a better shot at success than the plumber's kid?

If the plumber's kid not successful if he goes to school, gets a white collar job and generally lives better than his parents?

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#142

Post by jfrunyon »

slibhb wrote: post #114
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

> Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future Where do you think these "starting conditions" come from? We've lost interest in the long game. The system looks much fairer if you think about your family rather than yourself. And sure enough, immigrants continue to come to the US looking for ec…

The immigrants who come to the US are, by and large, already relatively wealthy. Especially if they come here with the capital to start a small business, or to send their children to medical school.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#143

Post by CraneWorm »

esens wrote: post #37

Working hard but doing so for someone else can often not lead to significant gains. Many services like Uber or InstaCart or even McDonalds or Amazon Warehouse or Walmart or Retail Sales or call center, you can work hard but there is no where to progress to. Your rewards are capped. You need to find a way to work hard such that your rewards are not capped artificially. Startups were you get equity. Large companies whe…

Post-scarcity cannot come fast enough; the (external) need to work hard should just die in a fire.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#144

Post by frockington1 »

sokoloff wrote: post #75
newsclues wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a misnomer given by the (academic) elites. It’s problematic to label your followers as fools.

"Methodology: We first divided the population of respondents into two groups: 'Informed Public' and 'Knuckle Dragging Fuckwits'. We then compared..."

Looking at the state of academia, its an honor to have those people think I'm a 'Knuckle Dragging Fuckwit'

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#145

Post by lettergram »

wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

I think we need more studies and evidence to create meaningful predictions.

Now, I’m going to remove any moral or emotional thoughts for a moment.

Sure there may be a correlation between wealth and future success, but hasn’t that always been the case - it’s a fact of nature. The most successful genes are able to procreate leading to success. What we did is say “all humans need to have the same vindication’s” and ensure infant mortality was near zero. As a consequence even the least able to produce can (a) survive but importantly (b) reproduce.

If you want maximal improvement to society, reduce the points subsidies. Quickly, only those helping society will procreate.

All of our poor, all of them. Are a creation of our society. Historically, the weak and unfit didn’t survive. Those hardy enough to survive the system procreated and made a stronger society over time. today, we have the weak and unfit leading more weak and unfit. Eventually, this system will collapse.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#146

Post by [deleted] »

bko wrote: post #93
wishigotitfree wrote: post #25

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#147

Post by taffronaut »

yathern wrote: post #46
hawk_ wrote: post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

> Similarly with colonialism - that's something that is only possible once your society is already rich and powerful enough to go around and dominate others.

I disagree. The European colonial period started in the 15th Century[1]. It established the wealth and power of those nations for almost half a millennium following. The main enabler was not power and wealth, but technology (sailing ships)

> Colonialism was not a huge success for England when you look at how much it cost. It was great for national pride and as a symbol of their "greatness" however.

Again, I'm not sure is correct. By 1914, European colonial powers controlled 84% of the globe[1]. Effectively the only competition was other colonial powers and colonialism demonstrated itself as effective to achieve economic power through (ruthless) acquisition and exploitation of global resources.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#148

Post by jacob2484 »

jfrunyon wrote: post #142
slibhb wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future Where do you think these "starting conditions" come from? We've lost interest in the long game. The system looks much fairer if you think about your family rather than yourself. And sure enough, immigrants continue to come to the US looking for ec…

The immigrants who come to the US are, by and large, already relatively wealthy. Especially if they come here with the capital to start a small business, or to send their children to medical school.

Can you provide stats to back this up? Many come here as refugees or cross the border illegally from very poor countries.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#149

Post by ferrumfist »

afpx wrote: post #127
bko wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you honestly believe this? What would you tell this to someone who wasn't born into wealth or opportunity? You're pretty much screwed, don't bother? What impact do you think teaching nihilism has on children? I don't believe its true, but even if it were, it's not a useful model for life.

Why would it be nihilism? A person's purpose in life doesn't have to be tied to working hard (especially if that strategy has diminishing returns).

Working smart doesn't equal working hard. You can put in 12 hours a day at work doing pointless shit like reformatting powerpoints and that would technically be considered "working hard" but that's probably not going to help you make money in the future.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#150

Post by EliRivers »

datapls wrote: post #128
52-6F-62 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you’re not counting, and what most people miss, is that not only are you at a disadvantage due to lack of resources, but there are many people in positions of authority, power, or just plain tenure who believe that accumulated wealth is a reflection of the wealth of soul. If you are below them in birth, and didn’t chance yourself to some higher strata by the time they grace your presence, they tend to believe yo…

Show me the data that supports this claim. Big claim, zero citations. As an American I've never met anyone who thinks wealth reflects "wealth of the soul." In my experience people here are Christian, in which case there's that verse about heaven and wealth and the eye of the needle (Google it) or they're atheist and don't believe in souls.

Prosperity Theology, also known as Prosperity Gospel.

Some of them say that the "eye of the needle" is actually a narrow gateway in Jerusalem - a physical gateway - which is a bit tight, but you can get a camel through it, so that's what Jesus was actually talking about, so actually it is fine to be rich; you might just have to unpack your camel a bit and carry your riches through.

"The prosperity gospel (also known as the “health and wealth gospel” or by its most popular brand, the “Word of Faith” movement) is a perversion of the gospel of Jesus that claims that God rewards increases in faith with increases in health and/or wealth." - https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-you-should-k...

And so on.

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