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Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

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Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#111
post #46
post #4

There was a short window of time (anthropological scale) in the western world where this was seemingly true. The American conservative propaganda latched onto it and tricked people into thinking it was true. The fact is whenever quick upward mobility has been possible anywhere for a large number of people, it has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour. It was someone else's hard work that w…

> has been built upon slavery, colonialism and/or cheap imported labour As far as I understand, this is actually a myth - at least the first two. It's a common cynical refrain that the current level of abundance would be impossible without slavery. There are many many places where there has been slavery throughout the years, and they have not ended up richer for it. The American South, where slavery was more prevalen…

A counterpoint to this is that the northern part of the US developed exactly because of the availability of cheap cotton provided by slave labor in the south which was crucial for industrialization.

> The interdependency between North and South was more than the direct connection between mass production of cheap cotton in the South, picked by enslaved people, and the success of northern textile mills. Recently, historians of American capitalism argued that slavery was even more tightly connected with the modernizing national and global economy. Above all that the U.S. domestic slave trade, worth perhaps $440m in total and moving more enslaved people (about 750,000) since 1790 than the middle passage of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, was crucial in the westward movement of investment together with the development of new financial products including securities, bonds, and mortgages. These historians have revealed how deeply committed many nineteenth century banks, especially in New York, were to the continued expansion of slavery.

https://acwm.org/blog/myths-misunderstandings-north-and-slav...

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#112

The most alarming thing to me in this report[1] is that a clear majority (> 60%) distrust technology and/or the government's ability to understand and manage it for our safety. That sort of sentiment is what can power through a destructive clamp down on big tech in the U.S. from ill-informed legislators. [1] https://www.edelman.com/sites/g/files/aatuss191/files/2020-0...

Big tech brought it upon themselves. Had they been less greedy, they would have painted smaller bullseyes on their backs.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funniest thing to me is this mid-wit notion of thinking you are 'informed' by reading news sites and getting a degree from a 21st century university.

Yes, far more informed than reading Dinesh D’Souza Facebook posts or natural wellness Instagram stories.

[deleted]

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#114

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

> Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future

Where do you think these "starting conditions" come from?

We've lost interest in the long game. The system looks much fairer if you think about your family rather than yourself. And sure enough, immigrants continue to come to the US looking for economic opportunities, which often take the form of small businesses, and then their kids become doctors and lawyers.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#115

One trend I have noticed is a grass is always greener hiring mentality at a lot of companies. That is, looking external for new hires versus promoting from within. This forces folks to jump around for career progression. And those that are not as willing to jump around feeling discouraged that no matter how hard they work they will likely be overlooked for someone from the outside. To this end hard work is discourage…

Often times it's not even a matter of "grass is greener" mentality but the fact that there is no position to get promoted into because a career tract was never put into place by the organization. The only thing you can do is stay put or do a horizontal jump.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#116

Starting conditions (where one was born, levels of wealth and opportunity there, one's parents' education and jobs) are shockingly predictive about an individual's future. Hard work leading to social mobility has always been the exception, not the rule. Most will not beat the odds since if they did, those wouldn't BE the odds. A lot of us are just so deluded by survivorship bias borne of listening only to success sto…

How much social mobility we talking? Statistically nobody goes from trailer park to billionare by working hard. You have very, very, good odds of doing better than your parents if you manage to get to age 25 without incurring a felony record, addiction to something that will likely kill you or too many child support payments. edit: I'm only talking about the US

Is this the reality at least in Europe? Especially with regards to people not leaving parents' houses, marrying much later, having less kids, and generally having less disposable income.

There always was some upward social mobility and that is usually called IIRC a safety valve. Very bright and fortunate can come from rags to riches, but honestly there are very very few. But from what I remember from my sociology book, the large majority of people stay the same or, go to +1 or -1 social class level (if there are about 7) compared to their parents.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Northern Europe, not known for their abundance of slaves, is wealthier. Northern Europe didn't import a lot of slaves but they sure as hell benefitted financially from the slave trade. > Colonialism was not a huge success for England when you look at how much it cost. It was great for national pride and as a symbol of their "greatness" however. The motivations for colonizing were primarily economic. Do you think th…

Countries like Netherlands, France, England definitely profited form the slave trade. But there are many European nations, Germany, Austria, Scandinavia, that didn't.

Scandinavian countries, however, had an underclass, who worked in near-slave-like environments for the benefit of land owners.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#118

I think one thing that changed in recent years is that there are more possibilities for hitting it big. Sure, it's survivor bias and all, but it takes one successful indie game (Minecraft, Flappy Bird), a good investment in the right time (early Bitcoin, early Ethereum, GME in December) and you can never work again in your life. Similarly if you are lucky enough and your Twitch channel becomes popular, you can stream…

I don't think any of these things are possible at any scale that matters. There are a handful of people rich from Bitcoin, Etherium, and Twitch streaming. Then there are 300,000,000 other Americans. Many of them bought high and sold low, or just aren't good at streaming games, and now they're just farther in the hole -- they have an investment account valued at $0, an overpriced mining GPU they bought from a scalper, and a bunch of A/V hardware they never use. The real winners in the gold rush are the people selling pickaxes -- I'm sure that elgato is making a killing selling Stream Decks to people with an average viewership of 0, and someone is sure making money on GPUs. Meanwhile, the people that saw crypto speculation or streaming as their ticket out of here are back to working 14 hour days for $8 an hour and praying they don't get sick.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#119
This is so sad.

Most people in the developed world have so much opportunity. We live in tiniest upper .000001% of wealth compared to all the rest of the humans who have lived ...

And we still figure out how to be cynical, pessimistic, and resentful of the good fortune of others.

Re: Survey shows people no longer believe working hard will lead to a better life

#120

You had the post-WW2 boom, which then wound down in the 80s/90s but there was a small resurgence of "everyone is getting rich" in the late-90s Dotcom bubble and then finally the run up into the housing bubble. Since we have fallen back to a more historically traditional model - hard work can advance your life, but you are capped within certain bands by where you start, by and large. Where you start is regional, famil…

More like it was the collapse of USSR in the 80's and diminished threat of Communism in west that caused oligarchs to be bolder and grab more share of national wealth. Specially in the last year or two when only select few got extremely rich by loading debt on the rest of society.

I wonder if Amazon's working conditions would be possible in the 60-70s with strong labour unions back then.

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